what's the best martial arts for self defense? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

woj · 04-21-2005, 04:30 AM

50.........

Drake · 04-21-2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRL

Get a TASER gun.

In the modern world, these are the best self defense tools

Raven · 04-21-2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatapeach

i'm thinking about learning self defense, but i don't know anything about martial arts.

what would be best to learn to protect myself from some girl's pissed-off boyfriend at a bar or similar situation?

take it easy,
eatapeach

http://fightresource.com

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 04:45 AM

OK: Here's my take on the subject. With respect to arts, keep in mind there are exceptions to every rule. Not all dojos are run the same way or have as competent of instructors. A dojo has to be evaluated individually. Also, arts that are effective in the street may not do as well in NHB competitions and vice versa...it all depends on what you're looking for. Here, I'm just talking street defense.

First off, the best defense is avoidance, bar none. As for arts:

Aikido is a very powerful defensive art BUT there are a LOT of very bad dojos/systems out there. Very few actually teach street effective techniques, imho, so you have to be careful when selecting a dojo. If you find a street effective system, then it's amazing what you can do. The advantage of an effective style of Aikido is (1) size/strength discrepancies don't come into play as much as with other arts and (2) you have a wide range of responses ranging from really messing up someone to not hurting them at all.

Karate offers a wide variation in methodologies, so it's hard to lump a single "good" or "bad" rating. Some systems concentrate on physical toughness, some on finesse. Imho, the best techniques come from the arts that emphasize non-linear movements and simultaneous counters. Look for the instructor to teach moving off the line to the blind side and NOT taking force against force with blocks, etc. If you do the latter against a bigger opponent, you're toast.

Jiu-Jutsu is very effective but there are limits. For instance BJJ typically concentrates on the ground. However, in the street you are rarely guaranteed a one on one fight. You might be choking or arm-barring the crap out on one guy, but getting stomped from above by his friends. Grappling on the street during multiple attack situations more effectively entails getting up as quick as possible and causing as much damage on the way up as possible. Since there is a large probability of a fight clenching or going to the ground, I think grappling (especially Jiu-Jutsu) is absolutely vital, but not the end all, primary martial art people make it out to be for the reason cited before. Now some arts do keep in the stand-up element and actually work on it (take-downs and some strikes), in which case I think those are more effective for the street than an art that solely teaches ground work.

Wrestling (not pro) is a great art, but they lack a lot of submissions. Still, from my experience, their take-downs and movements are better than Jiu-Jutsu. From a street perspective, its an awesome supplemental art or primary if you learn some strikes as well. Wrestlers that later learn submissions can be incredible.

Judo is a good martial art, but is competition minded. In general, their throws will be better than Jiu-Jitsu guys because they practice them more, but their groundwork probably won't be a formitable. A very solid base though, and if you devote yourself to it, it's awesome. I grappled a 4th dan in BJJ, who was also ranked in Judo, and his opinion was it was the best base of any martial art. I've also grappled the #1 and 2 ranked Judoka in America and the CanAms and though my head was going to pop off my body.

Boxing has the most lethal hand techniques of any martial art, although they are somewhat limited to just hands unless some cross training occurs. But even as a sole art, it's effective for the street.

Thai Boxing is brutal and very very effective. There is nothing more powerful than knees and elbows in terms of strikes, and they use them very efficiently. As a primary or even secondary art, Thai boxing is awesome for both the street and the ring.

Arnis, Escrima and Kali are different martial arts, but since I don't know much about them and they come from the same foundation, I'm lumping them together. From my limited experience, the empty hand techniques are good, but the real power comes from what they can do with sticks and knives. If you cross an escrimador who's got a knife, pray.

Tae Kwon Do is more for competition, and usually point sparring which serves no purpose except make you a less effective fighter. I don't have a high opinion of most Tae Kwon Do, but recognize there are difference ways of teaching it. I have seen some guys coming from the ultra-rare street-wise TKD dojos that could handle themselves on the street, although I still don't think it's as effective as some other styles. Forget about doing high kicks or spinning techniques, because a street fighter will kill you.

Jeet Kune Do has a great philosophy and from my experience seems effective for the street.

Kung Fu seems pretty loopy. I'm sure there's some powerful styles out there, but I don't know enough about it to say. I haven't yet crossed a Kung Fu guy that was incredibly formitable, but then I haven't really played with a lot of them either... so can't really say too much. Simple works better than complicated, so keep that in mind.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven

http://fightresource.com

GODDAMNIT!

I totally forgot that website!!! God only knows how much time I spent watching it become what it is now. LOL

Buddy · 04-21-2005, 07:44 AM

Okay here is my 2 cents.
I've trained in Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, Jujitsu, and some Kick boxing.
If you have ever been in a fight you already know that a fight is never even number and usually is a couple of punches and then a ground fight.
Aikido as taught in most schools will do you very little good in a real fight. I trained at a school that taught Aikido for self defense, it was a very aggressive style more true to the pre WWII style of Aikido, which is to say it was really Jujitsu. As a rule there is no ground fighting in Aikido, so that's not much help. But it was great in training for fighting multiple people standing. Which if you've ever been in a bar fight you will know that is an important skill.
I think the training I did in Small Circle Jujitsu was the most applicable to a street fight, there were elements of boxing, karate, and grappling. That combined with the group fighting aspect of my Aikido made me feel like I could defend myself in most situations.
But I think the most important aspect of self defense is daily training. More then 50% of self defense is muscle memory. Technique is really a smaller part of it. When someone throws a punch at you and catches you by surprise you are going to be most of the way through the confrontation before your rational brain catches up. Training everyday allows you to react automatically without thinking about it.
I trained a lot when I was younger, but it's been years since I've done anything seriously. I'm pretty sure I'd get my ass kicked now-a-days.
My two cents.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy

Okay here is my 2 cents.
I've trained in Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, Jujitsu, and some Kick boxing.
If you have ever been in a fight you already know that a fight is never even number and usually is a couple of punches and then a ground fight.
Aikido as taught in most schools will do you very little good in a real fight. I trained at a school that taught Aikido for self defense, it was a very aggressive style more true to the pre WWII style of Aikido, which is to say it was really Jujitsu. As a rule there is no ground fighting in Aikido, so that's not much help. But it was great in training for fighting multiple people standing. Which if you've ever been in a bar fight you will know that is an important skill.
I think the training I did in Small Circle Jujitsu was the most applicable to a street fight, there were elements of boxing, karate, and grappling. That combined with the group fighting aspect of my Aikido made me feel like I could defend myself in most situations.
But I think the most important aspect of self defense is daily training. More then 50% of self defense is muscle memory. Technique is really a smaller part of it. When someone throws a punch at you and catches you by surprise you are going to be most of the way through the confrontation before your rational brain catches up. Training everyday allows you to react automatically without thinking about it.
I trained a lot when I was younger, but it's been years since I've done anything seriously. I'm pretty sure I'd get my ass kicked now-a-days.
My two cents.

I disagree with your assesment. Learning technique is 20%, 80% alive training against an opponent. You can drill forever and have all the muscle memory you want, but if that technique doesn't work against a pumped up attacker who is resisting, it's useless.

TheSenator · 04-21-2005, 07:59 AM

Akido is not realistic....they don't train with a 100% fully resisting partner.

Video Link of the Best Fighting System
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/458406-fight-system-video.html

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Akido is not realistic....they don't train with a 100% fully resisting partner.

Video Link of the Best Fighting System
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/458406-fight-system-video.html

GRACIE ZZZHHHHHOOOOO ZZZZHHHHHIIITTTTSSSSUUUUU!!!

If you can only train in one fighting system, this is it.

http://www.bjj.org

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

I disagree with your assesment. Learning technique is 20%, 80% alive training against an opponent. You can drill forever and have all the muscle memory you want, but if that technique doesn't work against a pumped up attacker who is resisting, it's useless.

I'm not sure this is the same argument. What Buddy was talking about was reflexive action, which I agree is paramount. You don't have time to think in a fight...you just have time to react. If your brain goes through the process of rationizing what to do next, it's too late, and you're probably going to get creamed for it. But if your techniques are instinctive, you won't hesitate. That's extremely important.

I also agree with your assessment, but your breakdown seems to delineate HOW to learn techniques. That 80% active training against an opponent helps you learn the techniques and when/how to apply them in a more hands-on environment. That's also extremely important. In grappling, maybe you spend 20% of the time going through the techniques without resistance, because you have to learn the mechanics of it. Then the 80% randori (or freestyle) is when you really learn the techniques, how to apply them and also how to make them reflexive, which going back to Buddy's argument..

HpicAnn · 04-21-2005, 08:04 AM

i like taekwondo..

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

I'm not sure this is the same argument. What Buddy was talking about was reflexive action, which I agree is paramount. You don't have time to think in a fight...you just have time to react. If your brain goes through the process of rationizing what to do next, it's too late, and you're probably going to get creamed for it. But if your techniques are instinctive, you won't hesitate. That's extremely important.

I also agree with your assessment, but your breakdown seems to delineate HOW to learn techniques. That 80% active training against an opponent helps you learn the techniques and when/how to apply them in a more hands-on environment. That's also extremely important. In grappling, maybe you spend 20% of the time going through the techniques without resistance, because you have to learn the mechanics of it. Then the 80% randori (or freestyle) is when you really learn the techniques, how to apply them and also how to make them reflexive, which going back to Buddy's argument..

I see your point and how I might have construed it wrong.

My point is that Aikido and most of every McDojo out there deal only in drills and nothing but drills. I've heard that saying about muscle memory more times tthan I care to admit. It's bullshit. Muscle memory will do no good in a fight if it has never been practiced in an "Alive" enviroment, with fully resisting opponents.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 08:11 AM

Also want to add that I know there are aiki schools that have changed their training to be more geared to the modern world.

God only knows that cutting the 4 winds has no real world application.

Pleasurepays · 04-21-2005, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

Dude, you don't have a clue about real aikido. Come train in my dojo; I can promise you it'll open your eyes.

exactly my point, you are talking about an exception... not the rule. my opinion from what i have seen is that most aikido dojo's are a complete joke. usually, its mostly just hippies and women talking about "how not to fight". thats why woman like it.... some fool holds their hand out in the air waiting for her to grab it so she can twist his arm and throw him and feel special about herself. sorry for being cynical... but i think effective punching is important.

Kevsh · 04-21-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sorry Tala and everyone that thinks Aikido is good for self defense. It only looks that way in class with a non resisting opponent.

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai. It was mentioned before, stand up and ground. Both styles are 100 percent alive, meaning you train against a fully resisting opponent, which is more applicable to real life and not some guy who is taught ukemi, or learning how to fall when thrown in practice.

From the relatively few real-word (ie street) fights I've seen, I have to generally agree - at least, kickboxers and muay thai fighters are trained to knock their opponent out. A good muay thai fighter just grabs and goes to town and against 98% of anyone you'll run into on the street, it'll be over in 10 seconds.

I also have a friend who is a master at wing chun kung fu. Another aggressive (perhaps too aggressive?) style that trains you to disable people in a heartbeat. It also helps that he looks like a black Terminator and won't back down from anyone or anything. Literally, he has had most of his opponents completely psyched out before the fight starts (I know, I was there when he challenged 6 guys outside a club and they balked).

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevsh

From the relatively few real-word (ie street) fights I've seen, I have to generally agree - at least, kickboxers and muay thai fighters are trained to knock their opponent out. A good muay thai fighter just grabs and goes to town and against 98% of anyone you'll run into on the street, it'll be over in 10 seconds.

I also have a friend who is a master at wing chun kung fu. Another aggressive (perhaps too aggressive?) style that trains you to disable people in a heartbeat. It also helps that he looks like a black Terminator and won't back down from anyone or anything. Literally, he has had most of his opponents completely psyched out before the fight starts (I know, I was there when he challenged 6 guys outside a club and they balked).

Muay Thai and boxing are very effective fighting styles. They train alive.

Wing Chun vs Submission Fighter/MMA
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...linkinfo&id=82

Another Wing Chun Kung Fu Guy getting fucked up by a MMA fighter
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...linkinfo&id=44

hennessy · 04-21-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

OK: Here's my take on the subject. With respect to arts, keep in mind there are exceptions to every rule. Not all dojos are run the same way or have as competent of instructors. A dojo has to be evaluated individually. Also, arts that are effective in the street may not do as well in NHB competitions and vice versa...it all depends on what you're looking for. Here, I'm just talking street defense.

First off, the best defense is avoidance, bar none. As for arts:

Aikido is a very powerful defensive art BUT there are a LOT of very bad dojos/systems out there. Very few actually teach street effective techniques, imho, so you have to be careful when selecting a dojo. If you find a street effective system, then it's amazing what you can do. The advantage of an effective style of Aikido is (1) size/strength discrepancies don't come into play as much as with other arts and (2) you have a wide range of responses ranging from really messing up someone to not hurting them at all.

Karate offers a wide variation in methodologies, so it's hard to lump a single "good" or "bad" rating. Some systems concentrate on physical toughness, some on finesse. Imho, the best techniques come from the arts that emphasize non-linear movements and simultaneous counters. Look for the instructor to teach moving off the line to the blind side and NOT taking force against force with blocks, etc. If you do the latter against a bigger opponent, you're toast.

Jiu-Jutsu is very effective but there are limits. For instance BJJ typically concentrates on the ground. However, in the street you are rarely guaranteed a one on one fight. You might be choking or arm-barring the crap out on one guy, but getting stomped from above by his friends. Grappling on the street during multiple attack situations more effectively entails getting up as quick as possible and causing as much damage on the way up as possible. Since there is a large probability of a fight clenching or going to the ground, I think grappling (especially Jiu-Jutsu) is absolutely vital, but not the end all, primary martial art people make it out to be for the reason cited before. Now some arts do keep in the stand-up element and actually work on it (take-downs and some strikes), in which case I think those are more effective for the street than an art that solely teaches ground work.

Wrestling (not pro) is a great art, but they lack a lot of submissions. Still, from my experience, their take-downs and movements are better than Jiu-Jutsu. From a street perspective, its an awesome supplemental art or primary if you learn some strikes as well. Wrestlers that later learn submissions can be incredible.

Judo is a good martial art, but is competition minded. In general, their throws will be better than Jiu-Jitsu guys because they practice them more, but their groundwork probably won't be a formitable. A very solid base though, and if you devote yourself to it, it's awesome. I grappled a 4th dan in BJJ, who was also ranked in Judo, and his opinion was it was the best base of any martial art. I've also grappled the #1 and 2 ranked Judoka in America and the CanAms and though my head was going to pop off my body.

Boxing has the most lethal hand techniques of any martial art, although they are somewhat limited to just hands unless some cross training occurs. But even as a sole art, it's effective for the street.

Thai Boxing is brutal and very very effective. There is nothing more powerful than knees and elbows in terms of strikes, and they use them very efficiently. As a primary or even secondary art, Thai boxing is awesome for both the street and the ring.

Arnis, Escrima and Kali are different martial arts, but since I don't know much about them and they come from the same foundation, I'm lumping them together. From my limited experience, the empty hand techniques are good, but the real power comes from what they can do with sticks and knives. If you cross an escrimador who's got a knife, pray.

Tae Kwon Do is more for competition, and usually point sparring which serves no purpose except make you a less effective fighter. I don't have a high opinion of most Tae Kwon Do, but recognize there are difference ways of teaching it. I have seen some guys coming from the ultra-rare street-wise TKD dojos that could handle themselves on the street, although I still don't think it's as effective as some other styles. Forget about doing high kicks or spinning techniques, because a street fighter will kill you.

Jeet Kune Do has a great philosophy and from my experience seems effective for the street.

Kung Fu seems pretty loopy. I'm sure there's some powerful styles out there, but I don't know enough about it to say. I haven't yet crossed a Kung Fu guy that was incredibly formitable, but then I haven't really played with a lot of them either... so can't really say too much. Simple works better than complicated, so keep that in mind.

Stellar post!!

Basically, Bruce Lee put it best on Enter the Dragon "It's the art of fighting, with out fighting" If you've resorted to physical contact, doesnt matter, you've already lost. When I was younger, I was a hellion, I'd fight any one any where. Trained in American TKD and all the weapons, I never went anywhere with out a five foot pole that unscrewed into a pair of nunchucks.

To go with the question however, I'd say any martial art that hasn't been too "Americanized". I trained with an instructor that stayed very true to Korean TKD as his master wouldn't allow the sport aspect of it to be introduced. It was pretty kick ass.

Someone stated bjj only trains on the ground, thats true and untrue. Most of the traditional bjj teachers do stick to the old philosophy of leg locks and what not, while the younger generation train for MMA which means they have to have a good standup game, as much as ground. Rickson.com is one of the guys who changed that, and thats one reason why he's undefeated.

loverboy · 04-21-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRL

Get a TASER gun.

that's one cool toy, fuck kickboxing.. i ought to be getting that shit

juicyjuice · 04-21-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aico

If you are looking to sneak thru the shadows and thru little metal stars at people, the Ninjitsu is the way to go.

However, if you just want to generally scare the shit out of everyone who crosses your path, I recommend Glock-Foo...

HHAHAHAHAHAHAA this made me spit up my drink!

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

I see your point and how I might have construed it wrong.

My point is that Aikido and most of every McDojo out there deal only in drills and nothing but drills. I've heard that saying about muscle memory more times tthan I care to admit. It's bullshit. Muscle memory will do no good in a fight if it has never been practiced in an "Alive" enviroment, with fully resisting opponents.

I have to agree and disagree. There is no substitute for the real deal. Not even grappling fully resisting opponents is complete preparation. Grappling someone on a mat who isn't striking at you, even if he's resisting every technique, is not the same as grappling on asphault with a guy wanting nothing more than to punch in your throat or gouge out you eyes. But it's the best we've got without maiming each other so much that we won't be able to train again tomorrow. But I do like grappling because purely on a technique basis, it gives you an opportunity to train hard against unwilling opponents without really getting hurt. No other art, other than grappling arts, really has that advantage...

Street-effective striking arts can't really do that. If I finger strike to the eyes, kick the knees or punch someone in the throat, I'm obviously not going to do that for real while sparring. So you're basically going through the motions, and opponents continue the sparring session basically as if it never happened. So it's not realistic, but it's the best we got without maiming someone. Like I said before, I love grappling, but on the street my grappling will entail much more than I practice on the mat. Namely, I'm taking an eyeball for a souvenir. So even grappling isn't fully representative of the street...in fact in most cases it seems people habituate themselves away from strikes when grappling because most people don't train that way. That in itself is detrimental to street effectiveness.

By the same token, Aikido has similar limitations as the karate example. I'd agree that the majority of aikido is not street effective, but that's not 'real' aikido imho. But as a bouncer, I can say real aikido is effective. You mentioned some schools have changed their approach to make it more effective for the modern world, but that's 180 degrees opposite of what's happening. The aikido as taught by O'Sensei is effective, but modern systems have changed it into some loopy, hippie non-effective dance. I'm lucky enough to study with a street-fighter who trained directly under O'Sensei. We're not afraid of resisting partners, but there is still the same problem as with the karate example. We use atemi (strikes) to distract our opponents, but we're not going to strike someone in the eye for real in the dojo. Futhermore, if I told you I was going to do a grappling sankaku-jime on you, you'd probably easily resist it because you knew I was going for it. Likewise, if I said I was going to punch in you the face NOW, it'd be easy to block. So also likewise, if you knew I was going to do an aikido ikkyo, that would be resistable. But if you didn't expect it and/or if I struck you first, the situation would be different.

Buddy · 04-21-2005, 09:14 AM

Anthony and some of you other guys, I think we are saying the same general thing, just saying it a little differently.
Once I became an advanced student in Aikido and in Jujitsu a large part of my everyday training was live fighting. In Aikido we would start with one attacker and move up to four. The rules were that they were going to kick your ass, full on, if you fucked up you got your ass kicked, you learn quickly that way what works in a pinch. In Jujitsu we did the same but with one attacker. At the peak of that training I felt like I could protect myself if I needed to. A big part of it was also learning to take a hit. It is really difficult in everyday life to guess how you will react to being sucker punched, or getting a knee to the gut. When it happens pretty much all of the time you know what to expect, you also know what you can take.

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy

A big part of it was also learning to take a hit. It is really difficult in everyday life to guess how you will react to being sucker punched, or getting a knee to the gut. When it happens pretty much all of the time you know what to expect, you also know what you can take.

I agree with that. I always tell my students that even if they accidently get hit during drills, their partner did them a favor by testing their reaction in a controlled environment. Too many people freeze on the street because they've never been hit before.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

I have to agree and disagree. There is no substitute for the real deal. Not even grappling fully resisting opponents is complete preparation. Grappling someone on a mat who isn't striking at you, even if he's resisting every technique, is not the same as grappling on asphault with a guy wanting nothing more than to punch in your throat or gouge out you eyes. But it's the best we've got without maiming each other so much that we won't be able to train again tomorrow. But I do like grappling because purely on a technique basis, it gives you an opportunity to train hard against unwilling opponents without really getting hurt. No other art, other than grappling arts, really has that advantage...

Street-effective striking arts can't really do that. If I finger strike to the eyes, kick the knees or punch someone in the throat, I'm obviously not going to do that for real while sparring. So you're basically going through the motions, and opponents continue the sparring session basically as if it never happened. So it's not realistic, but it's the best we got without maiming someone. Like I said before, I love grappling, but on the street my grappling will entail much more than I practice on the mat. Namely, I'm taking an eyeball for a souvenir. So even grappling isn't fully representative of the street...in fact in most cases it seems people habituate themselves away from strikes when grappling because most people don't train that way. That in itself is detrimental to street effectiveness.

By the same token, Aikido has similar limitations as the karate example. I'd agree that the majority of aikido is not street effective, but that's not 'real' aikido imho. But as a bouncer, I can say real aikido is effective. You mentioned some schools have changed their approach to make it more effective for the modern world, but that's 180 degrees opposite of what's happening. The aikido as taught by O'Sensei is effective, but modern systems have changed it into some loopy, hippie non-effective dance. I'm lucky enough to study with a street-fighter who trained directly under O'Sensei. We're not afraid of resisting partners, but there is still the same problem as with the karate example. We use atemi (strikes) to distract our opponents, but we're not going to strike someone in the eye for real in the dojo. Futhermore, if I told you I was going to do a grappling sankaku-jime on you, you'd probably easily resist it because you knew I was going for it. Likewise, if I said I was going to punch in you the face NOW, it'd be easy to block. So also likewise, if you knew I was going to do an aikido ikkyo, that would be resistable. But if you didn't expect it and/or if I struck you first, the situation would be different.

Good points. But let me just address two of them.

When I speak of grappling, I talk of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. While most detractors will cite that it is a sport and has no real world application, they fail to realize that our "sport" was created to mimick real life situations.

We win points on take down. We win points on having dominant position, ie, Side Control, Full Mount, and the highest points to rear mount. We also win by submission, meaning that if our opponent did not tap in a sport enviroment, he would lose the use of an arm, leg, joint, neck, or be plain out cold to a blood or air choke. BJJ is all about dominant position. It is extremely hard for anyone untrained in fighting on the ground to poke my eyes out, strike at me with any force, whatever, when I'm on top and control his movement. While I have total free reign to do whatever I want, strike, eye poke, choke, etc.

I can't think of any other martial art that has a sportive side that mimicks combat as well as BJJ does.

Now onto Aikido. O Sensei softened Aikido post WWII, and took away alot of it's resemblance to Daito Ryu Jitsu. There aren't many instructors still alive that trained with O Sensei, what is your instructor's name? I agree that the hippy bullshit has made Aikido a watered down dance. When I made mentioned of Modern Aikido, that I've seen has changed, is the integration of grappling after the take down.

Nikkyo Nage end pin is similliar to BJJ's Omo Plato in execution. The sholder is torqued past it's limit. Aikido uses the arms, BJJ uses the legs. I've powered out of Nikkyo Nage Pin, while I have never powered out of Omo Plato. The difference is what is used to do the technique. My legs will always be stronger than my arms.

I bought into Aikido's charms a long time ago and spent years training in it. To my chagrin, I got tooled by Dig420 who weighs 70lbs less than me and was only training in BJJ for 5 months.

ElvisManson · 04-21-2005, 09:41 AM

for self defense in real life situations check out Systema

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvisManson

for self defense in real life situations check out Systema

We are brothers, right?

Please don't tell me you fell for that systema shit.

They teach no touch knock outs.

that should be more than enough for anyone to stay away.

ElvisManson · 04-21-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

We are brothers, right?

Please don't tell me you fell for that systema shit.

They teach no touch knock outs.

that should be more than enough for anyone to stay away.

LOL...I am not taking it. Have a friend that is and he loves that shit. They teach him real world applications. How to defend yourself from a knife attack while sitting in your car etc...

I play guitar. I am not going to do anything that is going to fuck up my hands.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvisManson

LOL...I am not taking it. Have a friend that is and he loves that shit. They teach him real world applications. How to defend yourself from a knife attack while sitting in your car etc...

I play guitar. I am not going to do anything that is going to fuck up my hands.

I can defend not getting knifed while sititng in my car. Don't have my window down in a neighborhood I have to worry about it. In fact, dont' even be in the goddamn area in the first place.

Common sense gets you out of most fights anyway.

ElvisManson · 04-21-2005, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

I can defend not getting knifed while sititng in my car. Don't have my window down in a neighborhood I have to worry about it. In fact, dont' even be in the goddamn area in the first place.

Common sense gets you out of most fights anyway.

You are right, but there is nothing Common about sense. At least around here.

t.Dot · 04-21-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatapeach

i'm thinking about learning self defense, but i don't know anything about martial arts.

what would be best to learn to protect myself from some girl's pissed-off boyfriend at a bar or similar situation?

take it easy,
eatapeach

verbal judo

ssp · 04-21-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Muay Thai and boxing are very effective fighting styles. They train alive.

Wing Chun vs Submission Fighter/MMA
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...linkinfo&id=82

Another Wing Chun Kung Fu Guy getting fucked up by a MMA fighter
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...linkinfo&id=44

Bullshit links. Besides how often are you going to wrestle somebody on the pavement, you'll break your knees if you attack a person that low to the ground. A Wing Chun artist fighting a wrestler.. complete bullshit.

Penthouse Tony · 04-21-2005, 10:17 AM

Signup for one of those WWE schools and learn to powerbomb and choke slam someone's ass.

ElvisManson · 04-21-2005, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

I can defend not getting knifed while sititng in my car. Don't have my window down in a neighborhood I have to worry about it. In fact, dont' even be in the goddamn area in the first place.

Common sense gets you out of most fights anyway.

FYI - Carlson is in Toronto on May 7th. Same weekend as the Montreal show.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssp

Bullshit links. Besides how often are you going to wrestle somebody on the pavement, you'll break your knees if you attack a person that low to the ground. A Wing Chun artist fighting a wrestler.. complete bullshit.

Spoken like someone who has never been in a fight.

Wing Chun sucks ass. Get over it.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvisManson

FYI - Carlson is in Toronto on May 7th. Same weekend as the Montreal show.

Not making it up this year.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssp

Bullshit links. Besides how often are you going to wrestle somebody on the pavement, you'll break your knees if you attack a person that low to the ground. A Wing Chun artist fighting a wrestler.. complete bullshit.

How many times do fights go to the ground?

Don't make me dig up Wing Chun's Grand Master William Cheung whatever getting his beat on the ground with Boeztpe. they looked like a bunch of kids legs flailing on the ground trying to fight.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 10:29 AM

Fuck it.

These two men were at the time, two of the best Wing Chun "fighters". Which is a stand up striking art.

Notice how these "Strikers" revert to the basest form of fighting. Grappling.

http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg

Also notice how fucking shitty they are at real fighting. LOL

ssp · 04-21-2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Fuck it.

These two men were at the time, two of the best Wing Chun "fighters". Which is a stand up striking art.

Notice how these "Strikers" revert to the basest form of fighting. Grappling.

http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg

Also notice how fucking shitty they are at real fighting. LOL

All you can dig up is videos where fighters are being pulled down to the ground. Like you said, Wing Chun is not a ground sport. But what do I know. I've only trained Jiu-Jitsu (which IS a ground sport) for 9 years and my best friends are masters and instructors in Wing Chun.

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Good points. But let me just address two of them.

When I speak of grappling, I talk of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. While most detractors will cite that it is a sport and has no real world application, they fail to realize that our "sport" was created to mimick real life situations.

We win points on take down. We win points on having dominant position, ie, Side Control, Full Mount, and the highest points to rear mount. We also win by submission, meaning that if our opponent did not tap in a sport enviroment, he would lose the use of an arm, leg, joint, neck, or be plain out cold to a blood or air choke. BJJ is all about dominant position. It is extremely hard for anyone untrained in fighting on the ground to poke my eyes out, strike at me with any force, whatever, when I'm on top and control his movement. While I have total free reign to do whatever I want, strike, eye poke, choke, etc.

I can't think of any other martial art that has a sportive side that mimicks combat as well as BJJ does.

Now onto Aikido. O Sensei softened Aikido post WWII, and took away alot of it's resemblance to Daito Ryu Jitsu. There aren't many instructors still alive that trained with O Sensei, what is your instructor's name? I agree that the hippy bullshit has made Aikido a watered down dance. When I made mentioned of Modern Aikido, that I've seen has changed, is the integration of grappling after the take down.

Nikkyo Nage end pin is similliar to BJJ's Omo Plato in execution. The sholder is torqued past it's limit. Aikido uses the arms, BJJ uses the legs. I've powered out of Nikkyo Nage Pin, while I have never powered out of Omo Plato. The difference is what is used to do the technique. My legs will always be stronger than my arms.

I bought into Aikido's charms a long time ago and spent years training in it. To my chagrin, I got tooled by Dig420 who weighs 70lbs less than me and was only training in BJJ for 5 months.

I don't disagree with your arguments about BJJ...I've given similar ones to strike oriented fighters who said the same thing. I'm just saying grappling on the mat and grappling in the street will be different.

There's no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage. Maybe your instructor got the terms wrong. Nikyo is a wrist lock, and the term "nage" means throw. I can't conceive of a way to combine those two terms to get a shoulder lock. I have seen people demonstrating an ude osai (arm bar) using a nikyo lock while uke is face down, but I personally don't think that technique is all that effective, at least I wouldn't do it to someone much larger than me. I don't know the term "Omo Plato", so I can't comment on the similarities.

I've heard that same argument that O'Sensei softened things after WWII, but what really happened is his philosophy became more peaceful. The techniques were more graceful and did de-emphasize breaking, but it was far from "soft". Neither you nor I were there, so I don't think we can really comment with any authority, but my Sensei was an uchi deshi for O'Sensei and says he was anything but soft. He even knocked my Sensei out with a chop stick! (lol) And no...I'm not going to mention my Sensei's name on an adult board so that any association can be created. Sorry.

No art makes you unbeatable. Against street attackers who don't expect your response and are generally over committed, aikido is the most powerful art I've encountered and has proven to be quite effective in my own experience. I can't argue with the results. In NHB competitions where your opponent is less committed, expect you to know some stuff, and are generally more cautious, aikido is a little tougher to pull off without some serious atemi. But like I said, my arguments are geared for the street. Competition and the street are very different.

Yes, legs are stronger than arms, but what aikido style teaches to use arm strength only?!? Power comes from the hips...

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

I don't disagree with your arguments about BJJ...I've given similar ones to strike oriented fighters who said the same thing. I'm just saying grappling on the mat and grappling in the street will be different.

There's no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage. Maybe your instructor got the terms wrong. Nikyo is a wrist lock, and the term "nage" means throw. I can't conceive of a way to combine those two terms to get a shoulder lock. I have seen people demonstrating an ude osai (arm bar) using a nikyo lock while uke is face down, but I personally don't think that technique is all that effective, at least I wouldn't do it to someone much larger than me. I don't know the term "Omo Plato", so I can't comment on the similarities.

I've heard that same argument that O'Sensei softened things after WWII, but what really happened is his philosophy became more peaceful. The techniques were more graceful and did de-emphasize breaking, but it was far from "soft". Neither you nor I were there, so I don't think we can really comment with any authority, but my Sensei was an uchi deshi for O'Sensei and says he was anything but soft. He even knocked my Sensei out with a chop stick! (lol) And no...I'm not going to mention my Sensei's name on an adult board so that any association can be created. Sorry.

No art makes you unbeatable. Against street attackers who don't expect your response and are generally over committed, aikido is the most powerful art I've encountered and has proven to be quite effective in my own experience. I can't argue with the results. In NHB competitions where your opponent is less committed, expect you to know some stuff, and are generally more cautious, aikido is a little tougher to pull off without some serious atemi. But like I said, my arguments are geared for the street. Competition and the street are very different.

Yes, legs are stronger than arms, but what aikido style teaches to use arm strength only?!? Power comes from the hips...

Nikkyo Nage was the second throw taught at my first Aikido school. It's a term used in every Aikido school I've ever trained at.

Ikkyo
Nikkyo
Sankyo
Kote Gaeshi
Irimi Nage
Were the first 5 throws I learned. Nikkyo was a wrist lock that brought the uke to his kness then the movement was finished with Ikkyo. The pin was a sholder lock with both knees holding the shoulder in place while arms were used to torque the arm and dislocate the shoulder.

My Aikikai was affiliated with Berkley Aikikai, which as you know, is in the heartland of the hippy generation.

As for Aikido not being as good in NHB, what better enviroment than NHB/MMA to test out the effectiveness of a fighting system? That more than enough answers everything.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 11:09 AM

Btw, in mma/nhb, there is serious atemi.

nmcog · 04-21-2005, 11:14 AM

I breath in their face and they drop dead

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Nikkyo Nage was the second throw taught at my first Aikido school. It's a term used in every Aikido school I've ever trained at.

Ikkyo
Nikkyo
Sankyo
Kote Gaeshi
Irimi Nage
Were the first 5 throws I learned. Nikkyo was a wrist lock that brought the uke to his kness then the movement was finished with Ikkyo. The pin was a sholder lock with both knees holding the shoulder in place while arms were used to torque the arm and dislocate the shoulder.

My Aikikai was affiliated with Berkley Aikikai, which as you know, is in the heartland of the hippy generation.

As for Aikido not being as good in NHB, what better enviroment than NHB/MMA to test out the effectiveness of a fighting system? That more than enough answers everything.

You described something called a "Nikkyo Nage Pin" which is a shoulder lock. There is no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage Pin. There is a Nikyo lock/pin, yes. There is a Nikyo that is used as a throw, so technically it could feasibly called a Nikyo Nage, I suppose. But there is no nage which is a pin, and there is no nikyo which is a shoulder lock. Your instructor must have misnamed an ude osae or rationalized that since you have a nikyo lock, it should be called such...

As for NHB, I was trying to illustrate, maybe very unclearly, that there is differences between the street and competition. Aikido, it seems, is easier to pull off on the street than even the dojo. In competition, the attacker is aware of your training and isn't fully committing. Forget doing a kote gaeshi on a boxer's jab; go for the body or head. The fight would appear more strike oriented until you got close enough to do a technique, in that regard, it's not pure, 1-atemi-1-throw aikido. That's what I meant by "without serious atemi".

Was the Berkley dojo ever affiliated with Riverside? Just curious; don't know my geography over there...

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

what better enviroment than NHB/MMA to test out the effectiveness of a fighting system?

The street.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

You described something called a "Nikkyo Nage Pin" which is a shoulder lock. There is no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage Pin. There is a Nikyo lock/pin, yes. There is a Nikyo that is used as a throw, so technically it could feasibly called a Nikyo Nage, I suppose. But there is no nage which is a pin, and there is no nikyo which is a shoulder lock. Your instructor must have misnamed an ude osae or rationalized that since you have a nikyo lock, it should be called such...

As for NHB, I was trying to illustrate, maybe very unclearly, that there is differences between the street and competition. Aikido, it seems, is easier to pull off on the street than even the dojo. In competition, the attacker is aware of your training and isn't fully committing. Forget doing a kote gaeshi on a boxer's jab; go for the body or head. The fight would appear more strike oriented until you got close enough to do a technique, in that regard, it's not pure, 1-atemi-1-throw aikido. That's what I meant by "without serious atemi".

Was the Berkley dojo ever affiliated with Riverside? Just curious; don't know my geography over there...

Probably, but I went to the Alameda Aikikai which was affilaited with Berkley and I think Chiba Sensei.

BukkakeBrown · 04-21-2005, 12:11 PM

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

ModelPerfect · 04-21-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Probably, but I went to the Alameda Aikikai which was affilaited with Berkley and I think Chiba Sensei.

OK...not what I was thinking then.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

The street.

Sure, if you want to get killed.

If you can't win in a one on one fight sceanario, what makes anyone sure it will win in multiple attacker sceanario?

dig420 · 04-21-2005, 12:38 PM

Modelperfect, you can get all philosophical and watch all the Bruce Lee movies you want, it's not gonna make faeries exist, dragons fly out of your ass or Aikido and Kung Fu worthwhile arts.

If it works it's used in UFC. If it doesn't it's not. It's that simple. ALL professional fighters are Jiu-Jitsu men. ALL OF THEM. Without it you're gonna get your ass whipped every single time you step in the ring. Once they have their BJJ right they work on their standup.

BJJ, MT, Boxing, a little wrestling and in very rare cases a Sambo guy. That's it, that's all you see, because that's all that works.

Anthony · 04-21-2005, 12:45 PM

Damn Dig, goddamn BJJ nutrider!

Not all of them are BJJ guys, but all of them do study BJJ to supplement their original fighting style.

Deepai · 04-21-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTab

At Rex Kwan Do, we use the buddy system.

yea, no more flying solo...

04-21-2005, 04:30 AM	#51
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	50......... __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

04-21-2005, 04:45 AM	#54
ModelPerfect Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,862	OK: Here's my take on the subject. With respect to arts, keep in mind there are exceptions to every rule. Not all dojos are run the same way or have as competent of instructors. A dojo has to be evaluated individually. Also, arts that are effective in the street may not do as well in NHB competitions and vice versa...it all depends on what you're looking for. Here, I'm just talking street defense. First off, the best defense is avoidance, bar none. As for arts: Aikido is a very powerful defensive art BUT there are a LOT of very bad dojos/systems out there. Very few actually teach street effective techniques, imho, so you have to be careful when selecting a dojo. If you find a street effective system, then it's amazing what you can do. The advantage of an effective style of Aikido is (1) size/strength discrepancies don't come into play as much as with other arts and (2) you have a wide range of responses ranging from really messing up someone to not hurting them at all. Karate offers a wide variation in methodologies, so it's hard to lump a single "good" or "bad" rating. Some systems concentrate on physical toughness, some on finesse. Imho, the best techniques come from the arts that emphasize non-linear movements and simultaneous counters. Look for the instructor to teach moving off the line to the blind side and NOT taking force against force with blocks, etc. If you do the latter against a bigger opponent, you're toast. Jiu-Jutsu is very effective but there are limits. For instance BJJ typically concentrates on the ground. However, in the street you are rarely guaranteed a one on one fight. You might be choking or arm-barring the crap out on one guy, but getting stomped from above by his friends. Grappling on the street during multiple attack situations more effectively entails getting up as quick as possible and causing as much damage on the way up as possible. Since there is a large probability of a fight clenching or going to the ground, I think grappling (especially Jiu-Jutsu) is absolutely vital, but not the end all, primary martial art people make it out to be for the reason cited before. Now some arts do keep in the stand-up element and actually work on it (take-downs and some strikes), in which case I think those are more effective for the street than an art that solely teaches ground work. Wrestling (not pro) is a great art, but they lack a lot of submissions. Still, from my experience, their take-downs and movements are better than Jiu-Jutsu. From a street perspective, its an awesome supplemental art or primary if you learn some strikes as well. Wrestlers that later learn submissions can be incredible. Judo is a good martial art, but is competition minded. In general, their throws will be better than Jiu-Jitsu guys because they practice them more, but their groundwork probably won't be a formitable. A very solid base though, and if you devote yourself to it, it's awesome. I grappled a 4th dan in BJJ, who was also ranked in Judo, and his opinion was it was the best base of any martial art. I've also grappled the #1 and 2 ranked Judoka in America and the CanAms and though my head was going to pop off my body. Boxing has the most lethal hand techniques of any martial art, although they are somewhat limited to just hands unless some cross training occurs. But even as a sole art, it's effective for the street. Thai Boxing is brutal and very very effective. There is nothing more powerful than knees and elbows in terms of strikes, and they use them very efficiently. As a primary or even secondary art, Thai boxing is awesome for both the street and the ring. Arnis, Escrima and Kali are different martial arts, but since I don't know much about them and they come from the same foundation, I'm lumping them together. From my limited experience, the empty hand techniques are good, but the real power comes from what they can do with sticks and knives. If you cross an escrimador who's got a knife, pray. Tae Kwon Do is more for competition, and usually point sparring which serves no purpose except make you a less effective fighter. I don't have a high opinion of most Tae Kwon Do, but recognize there are difference ways of teaching it. I have seen some guys coming from the ultra-rare street-wise TKD dojos that could handle themselves on the street, although I still don't think it's as effective as some other styles. Forget about doing high kicks or spinning techniques, because a street fighter will kill you. Jeet Kune Do has a great philosophy and from my experience seems effective for the street. Kung Fu seems pretty loopy. I'm sure there's some powerful styles out there, but I don't know enough about it to say. I haven't yet crossed a Kung Fu guy that was incredibly formitable, but then I haven't really played with a lot of them either... so can't really say too much. Simple works better than complicated, so keep that in mind. __________________ Logan modelperfect [at] gmail.com http://www.modelperfect.com (Proudly hosted at www.webair.com )

04-21-2005, 07:44 AM	#56
Buddy Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: FlashCa$h Headquarters Posts: 1,828	Okay here is my 2 cents. I've trained in Aikido, Hapkido, Judo, Jujitsu, and some Kick boxing. If you have ever been in a fight you already know that a fight is never even number and usually is a couple of punches and then a ground fight. Aikido as taught in most schools will do you very little good in a real fight. I trained at a school that taught Aikido for self defense, it was a very aggressive style more true to the pre WWII style of Aikido, which is to say it was really Jujitsu. As a rule there is no ground fighting in Aikido, so that's not much help. But it was great in training for fighting multiple people standing. Which if you've ever been in a bar fight you will know that is an important skill. I think the training I did in Small Circle Jujitsu was the most applicable to a street fight, there were elements of boxing, karate, and grappling. That combined with the group fighting aspect of my Aikido made me feel like I could defend myself in most situations. But I think the most important aspect of self defense is daily training. More then 50% of self defense is muscle memory. Technique is really a smaller part of it. When someone throws a punch at you and catches you by surprise you are going to be most of the way through the confrontation before your rational brain catches up. Training everyday allows you to react automatically without thinking about it. I trained a lot when I was younger, but it's been years since I've done anything seriously. I'm pretty sure I'd get my ass kicked now-a-days. My two cents. __________________ -165486536 Disce quotidie * Ride quotidie * Ama quotidie * Cresce quotidie FlashCa$h Who the hell am I?

04-21-2005, 07:59 AM	#58
TheSenator Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 13,337	Akido is not realistic....they don't train with a 100% fully resisting partner. Video Link of the Best Fighting System https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/458406-fight-system-video.html __________________ ISeekGirls.com since 2005

04-21-2005, 08:04 AM	#61
HpicAnn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,319	i like taekwondo.. __________________ GiVe YoU a BiG......... tImE Best Converting Webmaster Programs! All Niches Covered! [email protected] IcQ: 226461222

04-21-2005, 08:11 AM	#63
Anthony Keyboard Warrior Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: One of the outer rings of Hell Posts: 9,653	Also want to add that I know there are aiki schools that have changed their training to be more geared to the modern world. God only knows that cutting the 4 winds has no real world application.

04-21-2005, 09:14 AM	#71
Buddy Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: FlashCa$h Headquarters Posts: 1,828	Anthony and some of you other guys, I think we are saying the same general thing, just saying it a little differently. Once I became an advanced student in Aikido and in Jujitsu a large part of my everyday training was live fighting. In Aikido we would start with one attacker and move up to four. The rules were that they were going to kick your ass, full on, if you fucked up you got your ass kicked, you learn quickly that way what works in a pinch. In Jujitsu we did the same but with one attacker. At the peak of that training I felt like I could protect myself if I needed to. A big part of it was also learning to take a hit. It is really difficult in everyday life to guess how you will react to being sucker punched, or getting a knee to the gut. When it happens pretty much all of the time you know what to expect, you also know what you can take. __________________ -165486536 Disce quotidie * Ride quotidie * Ama quotidie * Cresce quotidie FlashCa$h Who the hell am I?

04-21-2005, 09:41 AM	#74
ElvisManson Looking California Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 5,476	for self defense in real life situations check out Systema

04-21-2005, 10:17 AM	#81
Penthouse Tony Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 5,835	Signup for one of those WWE schools and learn to powerbomb and choke slam someone's ass. __________________ aamos AT FFN dot com Penthouse.com Business Development ICQ: 49090846 \| Yahoo IM: ff_aamos

04-21-2005, 10:29 AM	#86
Anthony Keyboard Warrior Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: One of the outer rings of Hell Posts: 9,653	Fuck it. These two men were at the time, two of the best Wing Chun "fighters". Which is a stand up striking art. Notice how these "Strikers" revert to the basest form of fighting. Grappling. http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg Also notice how fucking shitty they are at real fighting. LOL

04-21-2005, 11:09 AM	#90
Anthony Keyboard Warrior Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: One of the outer rings of Hell Posts: 9,653	Btw, in mma/nhb, there is serious atemi.

04-21-2005, 11:14 AM	#91
nmcog Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 825	I breath in their face and they drop dead

04-21-2005, 12:11 PM	#95
BukkakeBrown Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 734	Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu __________________ We are the only "Napster of Porn" and we convert at 1:20 Test out promoting us to your mainstream, adult and email traffic, you will love promoting us!

04-21-2005, 12:38 PM	#98
dig420 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 9,240	Modelperfect, you can get all philosophical and watch all the Bruce Lee movies you want, it's not gonna make faeries exist, dragons fly out of your ass or Aikido and Kung Fu worthwhile arts. If it works it's used in UFC. If it doesn't it's not. It's that simple. ALL professional fighters are Jiu-Jitsu men. ALL OF THEM. Without it you're gonna get your ass whipped every single time you step in the ring. Once they have their BJJ right they work on their standup. BJJ, MT, Boxing, a little wrestling and in very rare cases a Sambo guy. That's it, that's all you see, because that's all that works. Last edited by dig420; 04-21-2005 at 12:41 PM..

04-21-2005, 12:45 PM	#99
Anthony Keyboard Warrior Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: One of the outer rings of Hell Posts: 9,653	Damn Dig, goddamn BJJ nutrider! Not all of them are BJJ guys, but all of them do study BJJ to supplement their original fighting style.