pikers arguments stopped making sense some time ago. I think I'm done trying to figure out his line of thinking, since it doesn't really seem to go in a straight line.

I will agree with you there, I am not a big fan of his mission from god stance. But if he is so be it as long as it doesnt cause problems. I don't think it is ok to have tyrannts but, on the same token it is not ok for us to invade whoever we think is a tyrant. Now if these tyrrants are significant threats to us like Saddam was then we need to do whatever we can rather if its diplomatic like in libya or force like in Iraq.

Yes it does make me think. It makes me think that you are a very mis-informed person. The US did not supply Saddam with WMD's or any other weapons other than...at one point they were sold a handful of rotary wing aircraft and I think some cluster bombs during the Iran/Iraq war and they were not provided directly by the US.. The US did not put Saddam in power...nor did they provide him with power other than assisting with intel during the Iran/Iraq war...and the US did the same for Iran.

Right, is that why you stopped following the U.N. sanctions on Iraq as well?

I mean it is ok if the level of thought is too high for you to follow.... I mean arguments based on facts and research must be a relatively new thing to you.

I agree that the US supplied armaments and equipment to Iraq, but WE as Canadians joined in the UN resolutions to deny the entire country food and medicine for 10+ years. I feel worse shame for that than some political war-backing.

I agree with you that what is currently happening in Iraq is a mess, but if you are going to point fingers, let's be fair about it.

piker:

OK.. Yes, there is no doubt that this Administration has lied (whether that be "actual" lying or base deception.) This has been so extensive to damage the credibility of the US Admin - not exactly a good thing.

The current Admin have clearly had many reasons to lie - they even lied to the people they "supposed" to be "serving" (Remember that word!). They did a massive lying operation - some call it "propaganda" over Iraq - and continue to do this daily.

I agree.. Bush had a good "ranking" after 9/11 - that is normal under these kinds of circumstances - it's the "pulling together" thing. Cast your mind back to pre 9/11 - the status of the Presidency "ranking" was poor and declining simply because this thing was, to all intents, "inactive" as a President. It is only since 9/11 the Admin clutched on and shrouded themselves with the "war President" image that gave Bush his.. well.. in my opinion, his only chance in hell of staying remotely near the Whitehouse.

The US also had enormous support worldwide after 9/11. In part, because of the silly mouth and rhetoric, the lack of credibility, the inability or desire of this Admin to work with the international community and the apparent disregard in complying with basic international laws, have dwindled the support the US Admin "could" have had. This is just another massive failure on the part of this Admin. Most countries I suspect, would like to work with the US, but find it unwise to do so with this current President.

All this supercedes *any* political stuff. The standards of "decency" in politics are non-existant. It also does not matter that Bush is a republican or communist. It is damned sad that this Administration has caused, not only deaths or many thousands, both US citizens and other abroad, but has effectively failed in so many other areas (this too much to hahahahaha here!) - but check the economy for a start.

Everyone makes mistakes - any leader is equally able to make mistakes, for whatever reason. I sure would not "bash" anyone who fucked up on occasion - it ain't a easy job. The problem here is how can *anyone* consistantly do this and have the arrogance to lie and never admit to any? That alone is a clue :-)

Bush must be the worst US President ever... No.. take that back, he is not just the worst US President, but the worst leader in the western world since the downfall of Hitler.

You really are getting pathetic... Time to come out with your " conus" shit....
Are you immerged in alchool???? Completely marinated ....

and more important:

BORING !!!

The guy is a religious fundamentalist, you obviously don't know enough about those crazy people. You shouldn't be supporting them.

What's your definition of a tyrant? Kim Jong Il is certainly a lot like Hitler and much worst than Saddam. Fact is, the US put itself in danger by invading a weak country like Iraq and experiencing all those problems.

Saddam was invaded and proved that he's no threat. The threats I see are Kim Jong Il, Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists. But hey, let's see your excuse when Bush decides to invade another weak country. WMD's again? Actually if Saddam is a threat, then I don't know many countries who don't qualify as a threat.

Ok, I read all this and fail to see any evidence of the adminstration lying. I even see you speak of the economy which for all accounts is back on track and growing. We are still dealing with an overvalued dollar and therefore losing manufactoring jobs but thats dropping and the manufactoring jobs will be coming back.

You even claim the adminstration has caused deaths. I'd like to see some evidence or the thought process behind that view.

I mean to summarize that post I could just say you think the adminstration is to blame for all the countries problems maybe even some of yours and therefore you hate them.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...sfeldvisit.htm

"Publicly, the United States maintained neutrality during the eight-year Iran-Iraq war, which began in 1980. Privately, however, the administrations of Reagan and George H.W. Bush sold military goods to Iraq, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological agents, worked to stop the flow of weapons to Iran, and undertook discreet diplomatic initiatives, such as the two Rumsfeld trips to Baghdad, to improve relations with Hussein."

Washington post must be lying huh?

directfiesta:

I wasn't gonna say, but yes, tis banal to the extent you must question the blindness and lack of any intelligent comment - always the same - jump on the defensive...

The sig says it all... communism was the same :winkwink:

My post is factual...and you cannot prove otherwise. I know that you can post all kinds of links. This has been done in the past...repeatedly...but none of the links will show that the US supplied any WMD's or weapons of any kind other than what I stated. What the links will show is that some materials that had dual use capabilities...were sold to Iraq by private enterprise...sometimes legally and sometimes illegally. When it was learned that these materials were being used to make weapons...the government proscribed the sale of these dual use materials.

Why do you see me use WE often? Because as Canadians we are allies and are guilty by association.

It seems your beliefs are based on big conspiracry theories. Like these guys are out to destroy life as you know it and just make it one big god loving country.

Proved that he was no threat? Why because his military wouldnt carry out his orders? I think thats a little pompteous of you to assume. Don't you? Saddam was an islamic fundamentalist how can you contradict yourself like that?

Why do I get the opinion that you people don't respect the power of evil minds with the desire to kill americans?

Am I overestimating Saddam and Iraq. If so please provide how so..

The author of the article has twisted the words to fit her agenda thus in effect making the quote you posted a lie.

No, I just look at the "new american century" stuff and watch doc-umen-taries.
These guys believe that the world is coming to an end. If you can trust them to make sound decisions, go ahead.

Saddam had a secular regime and wasn't an islamic fundamentalist. Women where allowed education and wheren't forced to wear the hijab.

Ahhh..... I see. Damn you're funny :1orglaugh

I may be funny...but the article is not the truth. No Administration sold WMD's or any other weapons to Iraq..other than what I stated and even those were not sold directly by the US. That is a fact. There are hundreds of articles written by people with an agenda and then their are facts. You are one of those with an agenda.

And where is this proof? Or are you afraid that if you post links to this proof that I may come back to you with the dreaded "that reporter is a liar" response that you seem to wield so well?

I know that what ever reporters you get your news from HAVE to be way more truthful than any reporter I can find articles from.

What gives you reason to believe that he is a religious "fundamentalist"? I do not know that he is a "fundamentalist" and I suspect I know just as much about him as you do.

piker:

Oh hell.. I can't be bothered telling people what is even in the news media daily within the US and is being dicussed there and also globally. Where are you from?? :-) Mars?

On the economy.. yes, the stats show an improvement. That comes nowhere near "good", but is a start.

The overvalued dollar is ... probably right. The problem with that is it is likely to decline further and there are more "balancing" effects which are not good for the US. (Simple example - think gas.)

The main comment was that the current Admin have failed the US economy. Some aspects they have little control over - however by far, they have failed to implement *any* fiscal policy and it's only thank hell for the elected houses that they are questioning this now.

On deaths... that is one silly statement. What is on your TV set every day?? We are still waiting for "evidence" and "justification" for this war and what connection does it have to those who attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11?? Until *any* evidence appears, the world is aware this is an illegal war. You can bet if there was any evidence, the current Admin would the spreading the news in an effort to justify their actions.

Many more innocent people have been killed that ever were on 9/11. Many thousands more have been wounded and still thousands more will suffer severe mental and physical disabilities resulting from the effects of these "surgical strikes" and depleted uranium. This includes US solders who, it seems now, are suffering from the effects of depleted uranium from the Gulf War - the figures are bad news.

The decision to go to war was taken by a very inexperienced politican, backed by a group of advisors who would not be in any positions of power in any other western nation. I can't think of any "leader" in the western world who had this lack of experience when taking office.

Do you think that the current US Admin policy on the International Criminal Court was really "to protect US soldiers on a battefield"??? If so, gimme a break! :-) The International court judges have more sense than the Admin seem to suggest. It's more to do with "covering our own asses" again.

If you are that interested do a board search because this is a subject that has been gone over ad infinitum. I am not going to do it for you.

He dreams about God telling him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, he says that the all mighty have some kind of a plan for him, he cites quotes from the bible in his speeches, he reads the bible everyday, he's a born-again christian and so on. And he have lots of support from those religious groups.

A board search? I'm not interested in previous posts you've made about the US not giving Iraq weapons.

How the hell would that be more accurate than a Washington Post reporter?

I want news links.... articles, I want to hear from people whom you consider to be 100% truthful on the issue.

The decision to go to war was made with the overwhelming support of the duly elected members of Congress and with the overwelming support of the American people. The President does not act in a vacuum...and under the US system he cannot.

Al Gore never told a lie.

With "undeniable" evidence that he felt he shouldn't show anyone.... with an entire nation in fear from a recent terror attack....

things can happen for all the wrong reasons if the person spins it right.

I repeat do a board search if you are interested...people have posted link after link...after link...etc. This subject has been gone over ad infinitum. If you are interested in being educated do your own search. I will not. The subject is old and I do not have any personal interest in educating your mis-informed ass.

Well, if you remember this economy didn't start with this admin. It's a continued effect from the Clinton years. What kind of fiscal policy do you want from them. What I saw from them is they feel it's better to give the money back to the people to let them spend it (Tax Breaks) Which seems to be working. It is unfortunate these effects are instantaneous.

Yea, I watch TV, but you said the adminstration caused these deaths. Illegal war... blah blah blah, no what is illegal is disregarding the U.N. Sanctions. there are around 20 sanctions from the U.N. on Iraq which they haven't complied with. This is stems over a decade and the current adminstration has finally said enough is enough something needs to be done and they did it. Which, considering the desires and abilities of Saddam is a good thing. The man had WMD and the potential to produce more. Not only this but he wanted to kill Americans.

Yes war is tough people die. That is why we wanted Saddam to comply with the 17 or so U.N Sanctions. It is unfortunate he wouldn't. The president wasn't the only person to decide to go to war. Congress voted to support the president. And 55% of the population supported the president and the war.

To Be Honest I dont know much about the current US policy on the International Criminal Court. so I wont speak like i do.

I have not heard any of that. Since you seem to be up on the subject what faith is he...what church is he a member of?

hahahahaha.. Cheney did... denied it on Meet The Press and GOT OWNED Live!!

I think you can find the link on moveon.org

MaskedMan:

Is black white today??? :-)

Any person who claims that "the US not giving Iraq weapons" is clearly insane or in some dream world.

The US not only gave Iraq .. in particular Hussein, weapons, but also recognized this man to be a thug many years past. They then proceeded to engage him as an assasin (seems "terrorists" were OK then when it suited!) and put him up for eight months in a hotel in London while they jointly developed the "conspiracy" to kill an elected government member in Iran. Saddam succeeded and was then provided with arms/chem weapons by the US to engage in a war with Iran.

This is not contested by the US government, but I'm sure the version that would come out of the current Admin would say something like "We never did that! It's not true!" :-)

The problem then with Iran was it gave other elements an opportunity to grab power and this remains the status quo today - not exactly what was intended by the US. Another fuck up....

Virtually everything you just posted is BS. You are actually Massivecock aren't you.

One thing I am convinced of after reading all these posts. Is that liberals like to twist words to their favor. But, they never seem to have an answer on how to improve anything. Avoidance is their best policy. Don't know what to do? Ignore it, hopefully it will go away.

One thing for fun conspiracy therories are fun when read in a Tom Clancy novel. But when liberals start applying those works of fiction to real life things get scary real quick.

Since we're posting common knowledge, with links to articles and you're posting nothing but your uninformed opinion... I'm just gonna go ahead and laugh at you from now on and not really read anything you have to say.

Oh, and Piker... when did I say I was a liberal? Just because I think Bush is a complete moron, doesn't mean that I'm immediately a member of the opposition party.

You have a lot to learn about politics. :1orglaugh

Bush famous quote:
You're with us or against us

I think it was in an interview, I don't really remember but what he said was that he read the bible for 15 min in the morning before making breakfast.

He talked about the all mighty's plan yesterday.

And "God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."

I have gone over the same bullshit with fucking uninformed misfits like you over and over and I do not intend to do it anymore...you can do the search or not...I do not give a fuck. You are dismissed.

No one said i was talking about you. But by the way you argue with no real points just exaggerations, lies, and miss-truths i can tell you are liberal. Otherwise you'd provide rational thought and answers not slander.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

theKing:

theKing... simply look at the history of Iraq and Iran over the last 20+ years. This is not in dispute and every word posted is accurate. Tho.. I would have expected a one liner in an attempt to dismiss it!

There is NOTHING in my post in dispute, either by the US, UK or any international organization or anyone else - apart from you...
It's called "history"...

Tell me who did murder the finance minister in Iran and who did provide arms/chem to Hussein to conduct his war?? Was it Russia or a young bin Laden?? Up to that point he had nothing and just been elected to power..

PS.. But hell.. if you wish to dispute any of this.. ya got a long way to go! :-) I can list.. probably 20 + other instances in other regions which are also not in dispute, but I'm sure you will manage to dispute them too :winkwink:

I could say the same about you... you don't like what I say, I don't like what you say.

But I guess because you post out of your ass, that you must be the one of us that is the right one.

Yeah, I concede to your over whelmingly accurate posts and totally convincing stories.... ahem, I mean... no, I can't deny it... they are pretty much drivle.

But hey, if it makes you happy to think that you're right and my links to articles and news and posts about historic facts are nothing but lies and "twisted words".... then hey, you keep right on thinking that buddy :winkwink:

Look you said the president lied about Iraq having WMD's.. when the whole world conceded that Saddam had them at one point and hadn't explained where they went. What can you prove?

MaskedMan:

There sure is a "state of denial" in some - it must be from watching too much TV :-)

The other noticeable thing is, for some reason, it is "unacceptable" to discuss the truth that may not be savory.

I come from a country which was active in stuff like slavery years back (hell.. much the same as the US)... I have no problems stating this was a mistake and don't rush out and stuff up a flagpole in an attempt to "defend" my country.

It is also not a matter of "my country right or wrong" - I'll be top of the queue to blast the hell out of it when things are wrong. I think some call that a democracy. :winkwink:

It's sad to see people who clearly don't have an open mind to discuss anything with sense...

"Patriotism" is clearly a cancerous problem :-)

what's the point in repeating this entire thread over again.

Go read it again. Infact, read it a few times... not to learn, just to keep you busy for a while.

Yeah, patriotism seems to go too far sometimes. The ability to question what's right and wrong has become the ability to have unwavering loyalty to the leader of your particular political belief whether right or wrong.

I guess this is why I get called anti-american sometimes from some of them.

There is nothing wrong with questioning right or wrong. I do it every day. However, I tend to side with the president on whats right and whats wrong. Maybe its because i look at facts instead of lies people spread that ive heard spread in this thread.

http://www.adamba.com/images/PICKLES.JPG


I won't post everything, bacause " it is probably a lie"
(That's why you never have a link to your marinated claims)

MaskedMan:

There is nothing wrong claiming "your" country is this and that - tho ain't exactly what sane people do with their lives.

All countries.. least most by far.. have fucked up at some stages - some far more than others.

I can't say I "support" my government - some things are good, others I can't agree with. It's not that this is even "political" since both major parties are a "mush". But at least they have "qualified" people in power and conduct government business, in the main, to serve those who elected them. They also don't lie too much :-)

There is a serious communication problem over the US - this is "known" globally. So, tis little surprise you end up being a "US hater" - that's the usual banal statement that is given as an "answer" :-) If you are like me - tis far from any truth.

I can't help but think some consider their lives are some "war" between "us" and "them" - it's called insecurity :winkwink:

I have news for you...reading the bible does not a fundamentalist make. Do you...or anyone know what denomination the President belongs to...or which bible he reads from?