Amateur Model Age Verification - GoFuckYourself.com

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 10:52 AM

18 USC § 2257 Obligations Regarding Amateur Submissions

As this is US law it does not apply on me, but....
what if I use an US hosting? Or can it bind me for any other reason?

He-Man

further reading:

If the pictures are sexually explicit, you MUST comply with 18 USC § 2257.

Are breasts sexually explicit? That's a tricky question, because it depends upon the context in which the breasts are presented. We are all familiar with works of art in museums that depict breasts, but aren't considered to be sexually explicit.

However, be aware that American courts have held that pictures showing people FULLY CLOTHED can be considered sexually explicit, and hence, subject to § 2257. So, just because only breasts are shown does not automatically mean that the pictures aren't sexually explicit. A lawyer should be consulted for an opinion as to whether specific images may be deemed sexually explicit.

On another point, stating that you "believe that all people pictured on the site are at least 18 years old", in legal terms, doesn't mean squat! What you BELIEVE is irrelevant. The issue is whether the people actually ARE 18 or over. Saying to a prosecutor or judge, "Well, I THOUGHT they were 18" won't keep you out of jail! Your intentions and thoughts don't matter. The actual age of the people is paramount.

Furthermore, even if the people you "believe" are at least 18 in fact are at least 18, you're still not on safe ground. According to § 2257, you MUST have documentation (or have access to that documentation) proving the ages of every single person in every single sexually explicit image on your site. Even if a person on your site is actually 35 and looks 35, if you don't comply with the record keeping requirements of § 2257 (by having a copy of the person's identification, or having access to that documentation), then you have broken the law by not having a copy of that 35-year-old's identification.

Simply asking people who submit pictures to you to be at least 18 years of age is practically worthless. People lie. And even if they are at least 18, again, you MUST have records or access to records showing the ages of these people.

So, if you want to keep this section on your site where people submit pictures of themselves, in order to comply with the law, you MUST acquire copies of the amateurs' identification BEFORE you post their pictures. If they refuse to provide their identification, then DON'T POST THEIR PICTURES!

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 10:55 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that since it would be on US hosting, the laws of the US would govern what is on the host at all times. I doubt that it matter where the webmaster (you) is from.

Btw, the link you supplied is 404.

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 11:21 AM

If deleted the link and put up the text

He-Man

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by He-Man
So, if you want to keep this section on your site where people submit pictures of themselves, in order to comply with the law, you MUST acquire copies of the amateurs' identification BEFORE you post their pictures. If they refuse to provide their identification, then DON'T POST THEIR PICTURES!

Sounds about right to me. I've often wondered how sites that accept surfer-submissions get away with their shit. Surfers can't be trusted to submit only legal content. They often submit pics they don't own, shit they've grabbed off of newsgroups that they think is "cool", pics of ex-girlfirens/ex-wives who have not given their permission, and of course pics of girls who may or may not be 18 or older. Accepting surfer submissions is a tricky and risky affair. I wouldn't fucking touch it, personally.

AaronM · 07-05-2003, 11:40 AM

Oh Christ...Here we go again.

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 11:45 AM

Here's an idea ----

Why not set up a site to "look" as if it is one of those "surfer-submitter" sites? Buy a whole bunch of diverse amateur-style content, create a big database of what looks like surfer-submitted pics. Then on your submission page, just have surfers email you their pics, <i>but never ever post any of them</i>. ha ha..... you get to look at all the freaky submissions, but never run the risk of getting your ass in hot water, and the other 90% of regular surfers to your site will never know the difference.

Ta-daaaa.

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 12:28 PM

this could work, where it not that most 'amateur' content is just low budget porn. If you know where I can get good and most importantly real amateur porn let me know.

BTW my question was if I could for whatever reason be bound to US law.

Thanks,

He-Man

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by He-Man
this could work, where it not that most 'amateur' content is just low budget porn. If you know where I can get good and most importantly real amateur porn let me know.

BTW my question was if I could for whatever reason be bound to US law.

Thanks,

He-Man

There are plenty of producers who shoot amateur-style content. There is a link in my sig that leads to about 40,000 images, many of which would be great for such an amateur site.

And I answered your "US law" question above. If you host in the US, then your host is bound by US law for everything they host, so you would have to adhere to US law by proxy. You yourself are of course bound by Canadian laws at all times. Just do what's right and forget about avoiding laws etc and you should be fine. Play by the rules man, is it a business you're running or a hobby?

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 02:40 PM

Well first of all I'm not Canadian, but Dutch en secondly I have no intentions of breaking any rules. I'm just searching for ways to maximize te potential given to me within the rules.

He-Man

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 02:45 PM

First of all, substitute "Canadian laws" for Dutch laws then, not so hard. Second of all, there is no "maximizing potential", you are either legal & within the rules or you aren't.

I hope we're not arguing, I see nothing here to be at odds over. I'm actually trying to help you.

JDog · 07-05-2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by He-Man
18 USC § 2257 Obligations Regarding Amateur Submissions

As this is US law it does not apply on me, but....
what if I use an US hosting? Or can it bind me for any other reason?

If you don't host in the US, your bank isn't in the US, you aren't located in the US, you should be fine!

jDoG

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 02:58 PM

Ok, CDSmith, in no way I was trying to argue. But as I see it, if my national laws give me more room to manouver in then US law, then why shouldn't I use it, or maximize so to speak.

JDog, is that a guess or are you sure? I'm not really looking forward to whatever punishment stands for breaking 18 USC § 2257 because you guessed wrong. Did you guess or was your reply based on facts, because you don't sound at all sure!

He-Man

CDSmith · 07-05-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by He-Man
Ok, CDSmith, in no way I was trying to argue. But as I see it, if my national laws give me more room to manouver in then US law, then why shouldn't I use it, or maximize so to speak.

JDog, is that a guess or are you sure? I'm not really looking forward to whatever punishment stands for breaking 18 USC § 2257 because you guessed wrong. Did you guess or was your reply based on facts, because you don't sound at all sure!

He-Man

He's right. If you host and operate from your own country, then you are bound only by the laws of your own country.

gothweb · 07-05-2003, 03:09 PM

At this time, it is only the countries that you live and do business in that seem to count. So, where you live, where you are a citizen, where your business is based, and where you host, seem to be the main things.

However, it is possible that prosecutions could begin for further applications. Technically, almost any internet transfer of data will go through the US, or US-owned assets. That could be a bit of trouble.

More trouble is when you are part of transfers including someone in the US. When your site is accessed by someone in the US, you are participating in an event that takes place in the US. When they send you money, its even more so.

I guess the moral of the story is that, technically, the standard seems to be a matter of where you do business... but exactly what counts as "doing business" somewhere is a point that prosecutors could push.

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 03:14 PM

And another thing! I don't use Mardi Grass pictures or pics of girls on beaches. But there are sites full of them. I don't think with the consent of the girls. Next to that there are 100s. maybe 1000s or maybe even more yahoo groups and msn groups with that crap, arn't yahoo and microsoft open to prosecution?

He-Man

He-Man · 07-05-2003, 03:44 PM

No one with a law degree that can help me?

He-Man

Mr.Fiction · 07-05-2003, 04:00 PM

2257 is specific to certain kinds of content. Simple nudity does not necessarily require 2257. It depends on who you ask, what needs 2257.

freeadultcontent · 07-05-2003, 04:10 PM

1. Seek good lawyer.
2. Pay him/her.
3. Follow their advice.
4. Take some extra precautions just because you can never play it to safe.
5. Do not buy, rent. lease, use content from a provider that does not clearly state the physical real address of the custodian, name of the custodian, etc. No P.O. Box's, no company names, no mail drops, blah blah blah.

Then for the ubber morons. When your talking with the lawyer that you will not have, and they are not going over each line of the code with you, they will not have explained what the deffinition of the terms mean, since they are in the code afterall.

He-Man · 07-06-2003, 04:57 AM

As a law student is it's great to see you all seem to know more about it then I do. Shows how much I learned the past 2 years.

He-Man

07-05-2003, 10:52 AM	#1
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	Amateur Model Age Verification 18 USC § 2257 Obligations Regarding Amateur Submissions As this is US law it does not apply on me, but.... what if I use an US hosting? Or can it bind me for any other reason? He-Man further reading: If the pictures are sexually explicit, you MUST comply with 18 USC § 2257. Are breasts sexually explicit? That's a tricky question, because it depends upon the context in which the breasts are presented. We are all familiar with works of art in museums that depict breasts, but aren't considered to be sexually explicit. However, be aware that American courts have held that pictures showing people FULLY CLOTHED can be considered sexually explicit, and hence, subject to § 2257. So, just because only breasts are shown does not automatically mean that the pictures aren't sexually explicit. A lawyer should be consulted for an opinion as to whether specific images may be deemed sexually explicit. On another point, stating that you "believe that all people pictured on the site are at least 18 years old", in legal terms, doesn't mean squat! What you BELIEVE is irrelevant. The issue is whether the people actually ARE 18 or over. Saying to a prosecutor or judge, "Well, I THOUGHT they were 18" won't keep you out of jail! Your intentions and thoughts don't matter. The actual age of the people is paramount. Furthermore, even if the people you "believe" are at least 18 in fact are at least 18, you're still not on safe ground. According to § 2257, you MUST have documentation (or have access to that documentation) proving the ages of every single person in every single sexually explicit image on your site. Even if a person on your site is actually 35 and looks 35, if you don't comply with the record keeping requirements of § 2257 (by having a copy of the person's identification, or having access to that documentation), then you have broken the law by not having a copy of that 35-year-old's identification. Simply asking people who submit pictures to you to be at least 18 years of age is practically worthless. People lie. And even if they are at least 18, again, you MUST have records or access to records showing the ages of these people. So, if you want to keep this section on your site where people submit pictures of themselves, in order to comply with the law, you MUST acquire copies of the amateurs' identification BEFORE you post their pictures. If they refuse to provide their identification, then DON'T POST THEIR PICTURES! __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross Last edited by He-Man; 07-05-2003 at 11:20 AM..

07-05-2003, 10:55 AM	#2
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that since it would be on US hosting, the laws of the US would govern what is on the host at all times. I doubt that it matter where the webmaster (you) is from. Btw, the link you supplied is 404. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

07-05-2003, 11:21 AM	#3
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	If deleted the link and put up the text He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 11:45 AM	#6
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	Here's an idea ---- Why not set up a site to "look" as if it is one of those "surfer-submitter" sites? Buy a whole bunch of diverse amateur-style content, create a big database of what looks like surfer-submitted pics. Then on your submission page, just have surfers email you their pics, <i>but never ever post any of them</i>. ha ha..... you get to look at all the freaky submissions, but never run the risk of getting your ass in hot water, and the other 90% of regular surfers to your site will never know the difference. Ta-daaaa. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

07-05-2003, 12:28 PM	#7
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	this could work, where it not that most 'amateur' content is just low budget porn. If you know where I can get good and most importantly real amateur porn let me know. BTW my question was if I could for whatever reason be bound to US law. Thanks, He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 11:40 AM	#5
AaronM GFY Royality ;) Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: ┌∩┐ ◣_◢ ┌∩┐ Posts: 46,915	Oh Christ...Here we go again.

07-05-2003, 02:40 PM	#9
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	Well first of all I'm not Canadian, but Dutch en secondly I have no intentions of breaking any rules. I'm just searching for ways to maximize te potential given to me within the rules. He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 02:45 PM	#10
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	First of all, substitute "Canadian laws" for Dutch laws then, not so hard. Second of all, there is no "maximizing potential", you are either legal & within the rules or you aren't. I hope we're not arguing, I see nothing here to be at odds over. I'm actually trying to help you. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

07-05-2003, 02:58 PM	#12
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	Ok, CDSmith, in no way I was trying to argue. But as I see it, if my national laws give me more room to manouver in then US law, then why shouldn't I use it, or maximize so to speak. JDog, is that a guess or are you sure? I'm not really looking forward to whatever punishment stands for breaking 18 USC § 2257 because you guessed wrong. Did you guess or was your reply based on facts, because you don't sound at all sure! He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 03:09 PM	#14
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	At this time, it is only the countries that you live and do business in that seem to count. So, where you live, where you are a citizen, where your business is based, and where you host, seem to be the main things. However, it is possible that prosecutions could begin for further applications. Technically, almost any internet transfer of data will go through the US, or US-owned assets. That could be a bit of trouble. More trouble is when you are part of transfers including someone in the US. When your site is accessed by someone in the US, you are participating in an event that takes place in the US. When they send you money, its even more so. I guess the moral of the story is that, technically, the standard seems to be a matter of where you do business... but exactly what counts as "doing business" somewhere is a point that prosecutors could push. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

07-05-2003, 03:14 PM	#15
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	And another thing! I don't use Mardi Grass pictures or pics of girls on beaches. But there are sites full of them. I don't think with the consent of the girls. Next to that there are 100s. maybe 1000s or maybe even more yahoo groups and msn groups with that crap, arn't yahoo and microsoft open to prosecution? He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 03:44 PM	#16
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	No one with a law degree that can help me? He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross

07-05-2003, 04:00 PM	#17
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	2257 is specific to certain kinds of content. Simple nudity does not necessarily require 2257. It depends on who you ask, what needs 2257.

07-05-2003, 04:10 PM	#18
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	1. Seek good lawyer. 2. Pay him/her. 3. Follow their advice. 4. Take some extra precautions just because you can never play it to safe. 5. Do not buy, rent. lease, use content from a provider that does not clearly state the physical real address of the custodian, name of the custodian, etc. No P.O. Box's, no company names, no mail drops, blah blah blah. Then for the ubber morons. When your talking with the lawyer that you will not have, and they are not going over each line of the code with you, they will not have explained what the deffinition of the terms mean, since they are in the code afterall. __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites

07-06-2003, 04:57 AM	#19
He-Man Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Amsterdam!! Posts: 706	As a law student is it's great to see you all seem to know more about it then I do. Shows how much I learned the past 2 years. He-Man __________________ "We don't make mistakes, we have happy little accidents." Bob "King of the Canvas" Ross