Originally Posted by Jay-Rock

Girls rates in LA are from $700-$1000 for BG scenes if they are hot. It takes about 3 hours to shoot a hardcore scene with setup, wardrobe, video, & stills. Good male talent is from $300-$700 depending on the quality of your stud. (My boy Chris Strokes makes $700 a scene and shoots 5-7 days a week for Bang Bros and other big companies that pay his rate) + $300 for 3 hours at a decent location.

So to shoot a high quality in LA cost anywhere from $1300-$2000 depending on how cheap of talent you use (you get what you pay for)

Lets say the shooter only profits $300 on the shoot thats $100 an hour
10% of the profit goes to CA state income taxes
20 % to the IRS
That brings it to $210 profit. You can make that waiting fucking tables in LA and that won't afford you any decent equipment with the cost of living out there.

Even at $100 an hour you just risked being sued for STIs and even prosecuted for obesenity laws. You give up your regular friends, family, and go under the social radar to be a pornographer.

Its not at all worth it even at $100 an hour to be shooting hardcore porn in LA. Fuck all the idiots who think otherwise. The company I was working for wanted me to work cheaper since there are guys in LA that will shoot just to be around pussy. When you can make a lot more shooting mainstream what is the point? It use to be a lot more lucrative than it is now and next time you question someone's rate ask them to break down the costs. Most people just don't get it as a lot of morons in this thread. There isn't much money left in porn unless you are shooting for the companies that actually pay. A lot of companies that want cheap content will fail when you get what you pay for in this industry. I use to make as much as the models as a shooting but for me to have to cut that in half and demote myself to less than I made shooting mainstream before porn is just ridiculous. A lot of the producers that will shoot for nothing are mopes that went and bought a camera from Best Buy and call themselves producers. Those type of shooters will only make you look bad to the agents and they wont send you the top girls. On top of that these type of producers will be the shady types and can lead to your company ending up in a courtroom soon.

I thought I was doing well in porn for a while in LA but even when I was getting the rate I wanted most of it went to taxes & equipment just to keep up with technology. Once I had spent tons of equipment to help develop artistic shooting operations for a major company I was shit on and replaced by a crew that I trained myself. I was told they would be shooting in another region so I was to train them but in fact they took over my whole shooting operation. They even stole my production assistants/makeup artists.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

reality check: you guys are saying it takes 'x' to shoot 'y', fair enough. the reality is 95% of clients can't tell shit from beans about quality.

if you think I'm joking scan the image content here at GFY.. crap that I couldn't even sell: fuck! whoa! that's hot! she's so hot I would suck her daddy's dick!!! blah blah blah....

and the reverse is also true. girls I know for a fact that will convert and retain: what a skank! ugly whore! blah blah blah...

maybe there is a reason BESIDES the tubes sites are failing.... just sayin'... you know?

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

the reality is 95% of clients can't tell shit from beans about quality.

Originally Posted by SplatterMaster

QFT. And believe it or not the end user doesn't care either. Most would rather have amateur self shot type stuff IMO. Reality TV...

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

yup... my thinking as well... I shoot pro-am and some guys complain it's too good...

Originally Posted by marcop

To paraphrase Grapesoda: The difference between amateur content and pro-am content? Pro-am content is in focus.

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Here is a thought, because content is now, always has been, and always will be the lowest common denominator of the business

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Here is a thought, because content is now, always has been, and always will be the lowest common denominator of the business

Originally Posted by Squirtit

Just a quick thanks to such open honestly and clean debate it this thread. As a content producer & site owner in this industry for 14 years, and now going through a business growth phase, I really appreciate it.

Observing the differing viewpoint from so many aspects of the industry in this thread will help me be more knowledgeable about where others are coming from and what I can do to make the best business deals for everyone involved. Thanks again

Originally Posted by CIVMatt

GD Good post

Originally Posted by American Psycho

Good post? its totally innacurate.

I know plenty of guys shooting content that book girls for TWO scenes .... a hj and a solo for $500
from the main agencies.

His math doesn't add up

that's the kind of answer you give someone who's hiring u to produce content and has no idea what's going on or just doesn't care about budgets

Originally Posted by JustDaveXxx

Everyone here pretty much knows each other in one way or another. We all pretty much get a long and have a mutual respect for one another.


Its not about who's better than who, its about being a straight up honest business person. We are all good, just different stylistically.


Im always around to help others and answer questions to help them be the best shooter that they can be.


Just Dave

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

if you're paying $500 for a solo vid and a HJ... well...

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

if you're paying $500 for a solo vid and a HJ... well...

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

if you're paying $500 for a solo vid and a HJ... well...

Originally Posted by American Psycho

Well? Pls continue. I can't read braile "..."

Furthermore i spoke w jay a while back and he quoted that price for a solo only as he just outlined for bg.

People are free to charge what they feel they deserve.
Problem with that is other need to be ready to pay it.

Originally Posted by fitzmulti

I read that as paying the TALENT $500 for HJ and a solo....
Not someone to shoot it and hire the talent inclusive of that same $500...

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

and if you can only figure out to shoot a solo and a HJ for $500, well.... back to the drawing board for sure... mr psycho, pretty sure you are clueless

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

When you add all the other niches together and have them being sold on a site like clips4sales, of course its goign to appear like it is a better option

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

One mistake those big companies are making, is by going to the same agency/l.a girls time and time again. That is what leaves room for other companies to come up and offer something better and why other niches still convert real well

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Youre definitely right about photographers caring too much about the technical side

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Also who is out of business?

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Sorry to you artsy fartsy photographers, but there is a reason you're out of business. It's a very simple concept in regards to who stays in business and who does not. Perhaps you're shit doesn't convert as well as others, or your girls are not as attractive, maybe you do not offer post production and the next guy does. If your content does not generate sales, then you find yourself out of business. It's that simple.

Look at Clips4Sale and all of the people making money there. Plenty of mom and pops shooting with what is at best night vision with mediocre talent and still making a living doing it. Do I think it's the pillar of quality content by PRODUCTION STANDARDS? No.

However, I am a businessman. If that shitty night vision content with crackhoes convert into sales, ultimately that is ALL that I or people like myself care about. I can assure you that if your content and girls were selling and converting memberships like hotcakes, few would mind paying your ransom.

I think some of you in this thread get too caught up in your artsy fartsy and do not spend enough time thinking about the business side of the equation from the end client's point of view. Obviously those who shoot hot women and good content that converts stay in business. It's simple natural selection of the business world.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

and like you say: convert and retain. that's the bottom line...

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

the first thing I do every morning is review the rating across the sites and read all the comments. this way I'm able to adjust my shoots to the membership needs as I go forward.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

if a shooter is NOT addressing the concerns of the members, no matter the quality or price of the content... that shooter will be replaced.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

what's interesting to me is some of the HQ DSLR shooter don't actually care what the members want and are only interested in their 'craft/art'.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Sorry to you artsy fartsy photographers, but there is a reason you're out of business. It's a very simple concept in regards to who stays in business and who does not. Perhaps you're shit doesn't convert as well as others, or your girls are not as attractive, maybe you do not offer post production and the next guy does. If your content does not generate sales, then you find yourself out of business. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Look at Clips4Sale and all of the people making money there. Plenty of mom and pops shooting with what is at best night vision with mediocre talent and still making a living doing it. Do I think it's the pillar of quality content by PRODUCTION STANDARDS? No.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

However, I am a businessman. If that shitty night vision content with crackhoes convert into sales, ultimately that is ALL that I or people like myself care about. I can assure you that if your content and girls were selling and converting memberships like hotcakes, few would mind paying your ransom.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I think some of you in this thread get too caught up in your artsy fartsy and do not spend enough time thinking about the business side of the equation from the end client's point of view. Obviously those who shoot hot women and good content that converts stay in business. It's simple natural selection of the business world.

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Barefootsies, its the clients that are currently hiring that have people caring about the technical side. The sites that are succeeding in the paysite market are indeed HQ erotic sites. There is a reason nubiles launched nubilefilms and the biggest sites to succeed lately are ones like x-art, joymii, reallyusefulcash's sites he has there, etc

These people are catering to the largest audience. Thats why its like that.

When you add all the other niches together and have them being sold on a site like clips4sales, of course its goign to appear like it is a better option

And as far as conversions, the bigger and more popular you are, the lousier conversions get, but those companies are still making the most.

One mistake those big companies are making, is by going to the same agency/l.a girls time and time again. That is what leaves room for other companies to come up and offer something better and why other niches still convert real well

Youre definitely right about photographers caring too much about the technical side of their work but only somewhat and the blame shouldn't only fall on their shoulders. I say somewhat because the type of product they are making is still the right choice for the most part.

Also who is out of business? Ive found the ones with actual skill have done pretty well at maintaining a workload. Also the ones that have the skill of producing high quality content and do not have a big workload, there might be other reasons for this.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

In the end the only thing that matters is it's appeal and does it sell. If it doesn't sell or convert, the photographer's client will find someplace else with better models, or shot in a way that sells. Money is the name of the game, not artsy fartsy. High end production value is nice if that is what the members want. But the business or company who hired you wants sales, conversions, and retention.

Originally Posted by JustDaveXxx

But I'm a "Spec" shooter. I shoot what the client wants and to the specifications that they want it. If I don't like it, or if I'm not interested, I just don't take the job.

It is as simple as this: Client tells me what he wants and I tell him what it costs. If the guy is a savvy and "in tune" website owner and understands his traffic, he will be able to convey that to me. If he conveys what it is he wants, I have been around long enough to know if I can make it happen or not. If I can and we are both happy with the price, it happens.

But if i cant make it happen for what ever reason, (stuff I don't like to shoot, Things I dont think I could make happen, Price, etc), I politely decline.

Well I'm fortunate enough, that I am always busy and I have have the skills enough to turn in high end, "Artsy Fartsy", Super hardcore, and or amateur. And yes you do need some degree of skill to turn in amateur content. What skill might you ask??? The skills enough to duplicate the same look, feel, and style in a different place with the same consistence as you did all previous shoots.

Why is that important? Well if a client likes a particular amateur scenes look, style and feel, that you shot, but he wants it in a different, place, location, at night, during the day, in the back yard, in a car, etc. You better have the skills to reproduce that.

Not saying that the guy who actually is an amateur, wont sell content, but a "Spec" shooter better be able to reproduce what the client actually likes and wants.


But I will tell you 1st hand, and this has been my experience; I don't think its about hot women or even pretty women. I think its about getting the right content for the right targeted traffic.

Just Dave

Originally Posted by Pseudonymous

Brian,

Given the percent of members who are vocal and vote, etc is slim, do you think judging your entire way of shooting based on that small percent is the right thing to do? Just asking for the sake of discussion.

I ask because the ones who are vocal and interact are usually hardcore porn followers. Who usually have a different taste. They've seen it all. I think the average surfer has a different taste than the crazy porn fans.

For example, you make two movies, an adam sandler movie and some small independent film with geniuses behind it. You showcase them to a demographic which are super picky about their movies and they'll choose the one that was better made.

However you go and release both adn which one does better?

I can completely understand why one would go with their eye and vision of what the mass audience wants.

Originally Posted by JustDaveXxx

Footsie, I like you, I respect you and I agree with you on just about everything.

But I will tell you 1st hand, and this has been my experience; I don't think its about hot women or even pretty women. I think its about getting the right content for the right targeted traffic.

Originally Posted by Jay-Rock

"The members like it more and its what the client insists on" I always adjusted according to what the bossman would say even it I thought it wasn't hot.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

"The bossman" needs to recoup his investment. One would assume that whatever he's insisting on is what generates sales, retention, or ROI otherwise it would not make sense to interfere. I would bet good cash money that there is a method to the madness and the choices being made somewhere in the business plan.

In short, he has a business to run. He should know what his members want, their feedback, whatever. You should be willing and able to do anything commanded for him to get maximum ROI for any content being produced. This is a Symbian circle of business.

Originally Posted by Jay-Rock

Although me and my crew had a fun time shooting this it is way beyond what I think is hot naturally since I am not into being abused. I shoot exactly what the clients want however some paysite owners don't get it sometimes.

Others know marketing and have never really been on a porn set so sometimes don't get it.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

They obviously know 'something' or "get it" about what sells on their websites and what members want if they have the ability and money to be able to afford hiring you in the first place to shoot their content. No offense. In the end you're shooting a product to sell. No more, no less. Tender feelings, pride and ego have no place in business. It's a very simple equation.... ROI.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

internet sales is extremely 'micro managed' these days, just like a walmart/target/grocery store... every detail of the consumer experience/action and reaction is charted, quantified and distilled to generate a sale.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Correct. It's called, 'effectively running a profitable business' based on metrics.

Gone are the old days where shooters were given pure creative control making it a gamble where you just shoot whatever your wittle heart desires and cross your toes for a sale or two. Any successful business now keeps track of what does and does not convert, solicits feedback from their members, and tries to invest in the numbers or probability of success and ROI.

As I said before, it's a fairly simple equation....this is a business based on ROI.

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

and yes the membership isn't that vocal however I think there is a formula: each comment equals 'x' number of members with a similar view.

Originally Posted by marcop

Right off the top of my head I can think of two things wrong about that statement.

Originally Posted by Alice22

I believe that those art sites, make the most $$ now, but you need to have a very big budget, to produce this kind of content.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You need to define what "makes the most money" means.

Artsy fartsy costs a lot more to produce than some C4S fetish stuff. Meaning, the profit margin per scene is potentially higher for a lower end production that can convert versus a high glam production and budget. Again, this comes down to ROI.

Keep in mind, I am not bashing artsy fartsy or high end production caliber work as there is a time and place for it and those websites. I am not saying that C4S is the greatest thing ever and that all adult sites should follow that business model either. My point is that this comes down to return on investment and profit margins per scene. The end goal is maximum profit.

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You need to define what "makes the most money" means.

Artsy fartsy costs a lot more to produce than some C4S fetish stuff. Meaning, the profit margin per scene is potentially higher for a lower end production that can convert versus a high glam production and budget. Again, this comes down to ROI.