Originally Posted by ModelPerfect

I have to agree and disagree. There is no substitute for the real deal. Not even grappling fully resisting opponents is complete preparation. Grappling someone on a mat who isn't striking at you, even if he's resisting every technique, is not the same as grappling on asphault with a guy wanting nothing more than to punch in your throat or gouge out you eyes. But it's the best we've got without maiming each other so much that we won't be able to train again tomorrow. But I do like grappling because purely on a technique basis, it gives you an opportunity to train hard against unwilling opponents without really getting hurt. No other art, other than grappling arts, really has that advantage...

Street-effective striking arts can't really do that. If I finger strike to the eyes, kick the knees or punch someone in the throat, I'm obviously not going to do that for real while sparring. So you're basically going through the motions, and opponents continue the sparring session basically as if it never happened. So it's not realistic, but it's the best we got without maiming someone. Like I said before, I love grappling, but on the street my grappling will entail much more than I practice on the mat. Namely, I'm taking an eyeball for a souvenir. So even grappling isn't fully representative of the street...in fact in most cases it seems people habituate themselves away from strikes when grappling because most people don't train that way. That in itself is detrimental to street effectiveness.

By the same token, Aikido has similar limitations as the karate example. I'd agree that the majority of aikido is not street effective, but that's not 'real' aikido imho. But as a bouncer, I can say real aikido is effective. You mentioned some schools have changed their approach to make it more effective for the modern world, but that's 180 degrees opposite of what's happening. The aikido as taught by O'Sensei is effective, but modern systems have changed it into some loopy, hippie non-effective dance. I'm lucky enough to study with a street-fighter who trained directly under O'Sensei. We're not afraid of resisting partners, but there is still the same problem as with the karate example. We use atemi (strikes) to distract our opponents, but we're not going to strike someone in the eye for real in the dojo. Futhermore, if I told you I was going to do a grappling sankaku-jime on you, you'd probably easily resist it because you knew I was going for it. Likewise, if I said I was going to punch in you the face NOW, it'd be easy to block. So also likewise, if you knew I was going to do an aikido ikkyo, that would be resistable. But if you didn't expect it and/or if I struck you first, the situation would be different.