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Originally Posted by Rochard
Your trying to make the fires sounds small and minor when they were massive. They were so massive that they instantly spread to other levels and other buildings.
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They certainly would be massive if they were happening to a house or an apartment.
I'm trying to make them sound like what they were: not hot enough long enough to soften and disintegrate one of the hugest buildings in the world.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
Other "infernos we've seen consume entire buildings for as long as 24 hours" are pretty much irrelevant being as they weren't fueled by tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel and massive fireballs that traveled dozens and dozens of floors.
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But the WTC fires weren't fueled by tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel. They were ignited by tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel that burned off in minutes.
Fireballs didn't not fuel any fires, though they potentially started some. However they didn't seem to start any in the lobby - since there were firemen and people in their minutes after the occurrences some think were fireballs, some thing were explosive events. And the video shows little actual fire damange.
The WTC fires ultimately were fueled by the usual office fire source material - desks, computers, carpets and paper.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
A building can burn for 24 hours and still be standing. But it's not a building that is being feed by jet fuel after the impact of a large plane.
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As I said, there wasn't a constant supply of jet fuel thus it was very much like a lot of big office building fires.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
You say "A plane couldn't have done this" and then you say "A fire couldn't have done this". But what you fail to take into account is that it was both - a plane AND a massive fire that destroyed a good percentage of the support and then weakened the rest.
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I don't fail to take that into account. A plane crash with a horrendous fire to follow were taken into account and the buildings withstood both. Regardless of how much infrastucture was compromised by the impact over those dozen floors, the remanding seventy floors below were not and could not have been compromised; the building should not have disintegrated.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
A fire on 12 stories is not localized.
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In a twenty storey building, that is correct.
In a 100-storey building it isn't.
The fires weren't out of control or raging, there were firemen on the 74th floor, according to recorded and documented evidence, claiming they could take it out with two teams.
Minutes later the whole thing went down.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
It was in multiple fires in multiple locations, including the lobby seconds after impact.
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The fires were moving along after burning away their carpets and desks; this is what happens. They weren't raging, softening beams, or anything that usually occurs in office fires. NIST's disingenuous statements, theories and computer simulations are hardly believable.
The lobby was another short-lived fire because it had hardly any fuel. Some people were flash-burned, others were killed outright. Minutes later people were able to circulate, looking for vicitms.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
It also caught other buildings on fire seconds after impact. That's not localized at all. At this point, it's not even one fire but half a dozen fires.
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Ok I see, you're playing on semantics as a form of argument? Ok, then. It wasn't a localized fire. Let's call it a massive conflagration which is on record as never having reached temperatures hot enough to soften steel, and initiate a complete global collapse of a building who saw structural damage (I believe the worst-case estimate was 17% of the columnar support in an area of three to five floors was damaged) which realistically could not have been part of the initiation process.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
There's no "presumed fireballs". Fireballs traveled down elevator shafts all the way down to the lobby, instantly. There's no discussion about that at all.
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Survivors did see fire, but it happened so rapidly it seems that it could have been either elevator-shaft fireballs or basement explosions. Taken with testimony of people from the basements, outside the buildings on the concourse, and in the lower floors (who did not see or experience fire), it could just as well have been explosions.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
The fire was feed by jet fuel.
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Nope, just ignited.
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Originally Posted by Rochard
It doesn't matter if the jet fuel was gone in ten minutes or two hours.
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If you continuously feed a fire with jet fuel, the way some propane or natural gas leaks can feed fires, temperatures given enough time can reach 2000 degrees.
None of those in the WTC reached more than 1000.
Of course it makes a difference whether a fire is ignited by jet fuel or fed by jet fuel, and it particularly makes a difference if the fuel or ignition source is gone in ten minutes, or two hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard
This was not a typical fire. It was huge, in multiple locations of the building, set everything on fire, and then was fanned by winds fifty to one hundred floors up.
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Just like any huge office fire caused by a variety of reasons, from fuel lines to gas lines to arson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard
Your trying to make this sound like it was a small little fire. It wasn't. It was a jet fuel fireball at sixty stories that instantly spread to dozen locations, including other buildings.
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No, it was just a relatively small fire in comparison with building size, which created a huge fireball within the immediate area of the impact zone floors - especially in the case of one building.
But fireballs and rapidly expanding jet fuel burns off quickly; it's highly volatile, which is why it is suited for commercial jet liners.
The fireballs didn't soften the steel, or contribute to the collapses; even NIST doesn't make that claim.
In the case of the other building, the plane went in at a glancing angle, hit the corner, you saw what seems like the engine missing everything inside to go zooming out the other side, along with most of the fuel.
Strange how two buildings with different type of damage and different levels of fire propagation managed to fall exactly the same way...