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bhutocracy · 05-18-2009, 04:55 AM

I agree with and have argued previously most of boobzooka's observations as to a continuum of "death acceptability" amongst other life forms. Whilst I don't personally object to killing animals for food, I think arguing in a binary fashion about all living things to the point of comparing a microbe to a dolphin is an intellectually bankrupt endeavour.
The only exception that can be made to this is a case of a particular lower life form's utility to the biosphere. It's hard to disagree that the extinguishment of a non-sentient life form is less of a moral issue than a sentient life form. The exception would be that if the destruction of the microbe, bee colony etc were to threaten the biosphere in a manner that it was to have a significant deleterious effect on the sentient beings attached to it.
Some people won't stop equating a mosquito with a puppy for trolling purposes, but the troll isn't going to cry about a moving story about the sudden death of the fungus causing their athlete's foot. It's facile, argued purely for hollow and ineffectual "gotcha" hits that never seem to land in any one else's mind.

At any rate I accept all that but still don't particularly have that much of an issue with people killing animals for meat.
I can't really comment as to the original poster's question as I'm not a vegetarian. However, I read a long article about mad cow disease about a decade ago. It really disturbed me. I hadn't really ever entertained the notion that the food I ate might not be safe in a fundamental and systemic way, it was a bit of a revelation. Sometime later I was eating a doner kebab when I looked down at the processed meat and saw all the little holes in it, which essentially is what mad cow disease does to your brain matter. I threw up as soon as I reached the nearest toilets..
The idea that your health can be held hostage by ignorant or profit driven farmers incensed me. I couldn't bring myself to eat red meat again even though I was a heavy meat eater. I used to call myself a "meatanarian". When I was 16 I worked in a pizza hut and would make pizza's to take home for myself (back when you could do that and it wasn't an offense) and I'd double the meat on the meat lover's pizza until it was almost unstable heh. Slowly I began to see chicken, not so much in a similar light, but as something unnecessary. I do however still catch, kill, gut and eat fish. I don't have any issue with this. I find salmon to be the most naturally tasty of meats so I don't even feel like I'm missing out on the others (Sure bacon is great, but I mean as a proper meal, as in a steak of salmon). Of course like all carnivores fish does have issues with bio-amplification of toxins (the only reason in my mind not to eat cats and dogs over pigs unless grain fed). And solutions to this (eating little fish) invariably aren't good for the ecology of the oceans. Even farmed fishing isn't good because of this. But short of spending 20 million dollars setting up a grain fed sardine farm it's about as healthy as I think meat can get with it's Omega 3 and proteins.

I have eaten an insect before, a BBQ'd witchetty grub, although I think grasshoppers would be a nicer texture. I think most vegetarians wouldn't eat them quite simply because they're not vegetables ;). One rule I've heard is "nothing with eyes".
I think if they were processed the way most food is processed and re-constituted into little smiley faces or something meat eaters (and probably myself) wouldn't have a problem with them though. Otherwise they're a bit fiddly. Fried grasshoppers probably isn't particularly healthy either. They have large surface to mass ratios and would carry a lot more oil per gram than other fried foods with their uneven body surface.

I think the health of a vegetarian diet probably has something to do with age and culture. America's fast food and portion sizes simply puts other countries to shame. Also if you're young and ignorant, maybe you are stupid enough to eat ice cream instead of a real meal. However I would say it's a lot more to do with carbs. Lots of vegetarians do eat lots of cheesy pasta's, lasagne's and pizza's also chips.. but overall I'd have to say they're a healthier bunch, just the mere act of looking at your diet is something most people don't even do.. So it's not exactly coming off a highly set bar. A vegetarian diet isn't hard at all. The hardest part is probably going out to dinner and dealing with jokes about why you're not eating the steak.

So again, I think it's a fairly tried and true path to vegetarianism to go from beef to chicken and pork to fish and then much less fish, to eventually no meat at all if that is your desire although I don't think there is much of a problem with a small amount of any meat in a diet (although given most people eat it twice a day that "lean meat 2-3 times a week" thing would almost feel like vegetarianism ;)). Personally I think not eating honey is bat shit crazy so I'm not even going to discuss veganism.

05-18-2009, 04:55 AM
bhutocracy Not making A Comeback Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 10,218	I agree with and have argued previously most of boobzooka's observations as to a continuum of "death acceptability" amongst other life forms. Whilst I don't personally object to killing animals for food, I think arguing in a binary fashion about all living things to the point of comparing a microbe to a dolphin is an intellectually bankrupt endeavour. The only exception that can be made to this is a case of a particular lower life form's utility to the biosphere. It's hard to disagree that the extinguishment of a non-sentient life form is less of a moral issue than a sentient life form. The exception would be that if the destruction of the microbe, bee colony etc were to threaten the biosphere in a manner that it was to have a significant deleterious effect on the sentient beings attached to it. Some people won't stop equating a mosquito with a puppy for trolling purposes, but the troll isn't going to cry about a moving story about the sudden death of the fungus causing their athlete's foot. It's facile, argued purely for hollow and ineffectual "gotcha" hits that never seem to land in any one else's mind. At any rate I accept all that but still don't particularly have that much of an issue with people killing animals for meat. I can't really comment as to the original poster's question as I'm not a vegetarian. However, I read a long article about mad cow disease about a decade ago. It really disturbed me. I hadn't really ever entertained the notion that the food I ate might not be safe in a fundamental and systemic way, it was a bit of a revelation. Sometime later I was eating a doner kebab when I looked down at the processed meat and saw all the little holes in it, which essentially is what mad cow disease does to your brain matter. I threw up as soon as I reached the nearest toilets.. The idea that your health can be held hostage by ignorant or profit driven farmers incensed me. I couldn't bring myself to eat red meat again even though I was a heavy meat eater. I used to call myself a "meatanarian". When I was 16 I worked in a pizza hut and would make pizza's to take home for myself (back when you could do that and it wasn't an offense) and I'd double the meat on the meat lover's pizza until it was almost unstable heh. Slowly I began to see chicken, not so much in a similar light, but as something unnecessary. I do however still catch, kill, gut and eat fish. I don't have any issue with this. I find salmon to be the most naturally tasty of meats so I don't even feel like I'm missing out on the others (Sure bacon is great, but I mean as a proper meal, as in a steak of salmon). Of course like all carnivores fish does have issues with bio-amplification of toxins (the only reason in my mind not to eat cats and dogs over pigs unless grain fed). And solutions to this (eating little fish) invariably aren't good for the ecology of the oceans. Even farmed fishing isn't good because of this. But short of spending 20 million dollars setting up a grain fed sardine farm it's about as healthy as I think meat can get with it's Omega 3 and proteins. I have eaten an insect before, a BBQ'd witchetty grub, although I think grasshoppers would be a nicer texture. I think most vegetarians wouldn't eat them quite simply because they're not vegetables ;). One rule I've heard is "nothing with eyes". I think if they were processed the way most food is processed and re-constituted into little smiley faces or something meat eaters (and probably myself) wouldn't have a problem with them though. Otherwise they're a bit fiddly. Fried grasshoppers probably isn't particularly healthy either. They have large surface to mass ratios and would carry a lot more oil per gram than other fried foods with their uneven body surface. I think the health of a vegetarian diet probably has something to do with age and culture. America's fast food and portion sizes simply puts other countries to shame. Also if you're young and ignorant, maybe you are stupid enough to eat ice cream instead of a real meal. However I would say it's a lot more to do with carbs. Lots of vegetarians do eat lots of cheesy pasta's, lasagne's and pizza's also chips.. but overall I'd have to say they're a healthier bunch, just the mere act of looking at your diet is something most people don't even do.. So it's not exactly coming off a highly set bar. A vegetarian diet isn't hard at all. The hardest part is probably going out to dinner and dealing with jokes about why you're not eating the steak. So again, I think it's a fairly tried and true path to vegetarianism to go from beef to chicken and pork to fish and then much less fish, to eventually no meat at all if that is your desire although I don't think there is much of a problem with a small amount of any meat in a diet (although given most people eat it twice a day that "lean meat 2-3 times a week" thing would almost feel like vegetarianism ;)). Personally I think not eating honey is bat shit crazy so I'm not even going to discuss veganism. Last edited by bhutocracy; 05-18-2009 at 05:00 AM..