Quote:
Read what I wrote again. I said the people deciding on the war are not silly protestors. They are not out in the streets anyhow. If you think your president decided one morning to go out to war you are wrong. Its informed and smart people that make it their business to know everything regarding the descision. It's their job, placed there by the same democratic mechanisms you (and me) appriciate so much and we all pay their paychecks from out tax money.
|
It's hard to decipher what "The people that decide to go/no-go to war are not protestors that say "Bomb Iraq". " meant in the context, but I understand now you mean the people in power calling the shots.
Of course I don't think they're as dumb as the protestors. We were talking about the public being for or against the war, not politicians and their advisors.
Quote:
If you think people on the streets, either loud protestors against the war or the same bunch (though I didnt see any on the streets) on the other side of the fence.. you are wrong.
|
how could I be wrong when this statement doesn't say anything?
Quote:
First, alot of the protestors are arabs. Many of the organizers are arab groups or arab country supporters. I know exactly what I say when I talk about protests, this one more than any. I heard alot of people just protesting cause they "think" its cool or the right thing without thinking too much of the reasons they were brought to protest in the first place as well as the possible implications of what will happen if they had their way.
"unless they believe in it" - I didn't say they don't believe in it. Its easy to believe. It's much harder to know. Many people believe in god. None of god's believers has the knowledge it exists. not "believing" that war is a solution is a naive point of view (or idealistic at best). Guiding our lives on beliefs only will get us all destroyed.
|
Of course arab groups make a part of it. Does the fact you're a Jew mean your opinion is any less valid? Should I dismiss your arguments here because of it?
Yes it is much harder to "know", and frankly no-one "knows" what this action will lead to.. there are many possible outcomes that can be studied but this is a gamble that Bush is taking, no one knows how long the war will last.. no one knows how many people will die, no one knows how anti-western terrorism will be effected if at all. No one knows if this won't go against his popularity, No one knows what introducing the pre-emptive strike doctrine will do to the military alignments of the rest of the world.
In the absence of clairvoyance all we have are our beliefs based on the facts.
So you vote Shinui?
Quote:
I didnt call them anything. I didn't call them anything just for spite. I say many of them are ignorant of the facts - which the video at the top proves as MANY other I've seen. I know some facts that makes it obvious that just shouting "I'm against war" is silly. If they went out to the streets with signs saying "More UN restrictions and Ebmargo" instead of "Bush and Blair = baby killers" I would listen further. but they don't. Silly remarks like in the video, saying "There must be another solution, lets communicate with Saddam" is words coming out of stupidity, not even ignorance. I take their objection seriously enough to requestion my position and thoughts. I did it time and again. I didn't come to new realizations though. Sorry - but I think the smart minority among the protestors are wrong (actually the smart ones don't protest on the streets).
|
I said it's not "jumping on the bandwagon" and you said "yes it is".
the video doesn't "prove" anything.. If I was going to a march to make people look like idiots it wouldn't be hard.. if I went there to make people look intelligent it wouldn't be hard.. the beauty of editing. I've already said there are a lot of idiots there.. of course there are.. doesn't mean they're all dumb.
The ones with signs made up are giong to be your hard core radicals.. concerned mums and dads that have just decided to march aren't going to take a placard that says they are baby killers.
Quote:
12 years time to resolve the issue is very diplomatic I think. Passing one UN resolution after the other is very diplomatic I think. Getting the support of so many countries around the world is very diplomatic i think.
|
im not talking purely diplomatic, I said in a more diplomatic way.. meaning more than saying "you're either with us or against us" before you charge in.. Yes there are a few countries..but NOTHING like the coalition in '91.
Quote:
There are alot of countries supporting taking out saddam by force today. Check the stats ;)
The right wars are not necessarily the popular wars. You don't need approval from everybody to protect yourself. If Israel hasn't attacked the Iraqi reactor in 81, you would be living under nuclear threat today. You know how much support was to the Israeli attack at 81? ZERO. Do you regret Israel did that? Maybe you think that action is the reason for all the hate in the world? hehe
|
as I said.. no where near the same level of support as in '91.. and in some of those countries it's only the very head of state that supports the US not the population (not that that matters at all). If Israel hadn't of attacked the nuclear plant.. Israel would be under threat.. not me. Don't pretend it was done for altruistic reasons.
Quote:
What do you suggest? Shooting bullets in the sky? if you do something do it right. 12 years of sanctions and demands didn't work. You can't take such a leader down by something else than force. If you think there is a magic solution of some single shooter taking the guy down that your government dont use you are probably wrong. If they don't, its because there isn't.
|
I suggest simultaeneous missile strikes on all 13 of his palaces and related personal sites. Not 800 missiles in 48 hours to "shock and awe" followed by urban warfare. The protestors don't give a rat's ass about saddam.. which is why they're unhappy with the sanctions and the fact that he's not affected.
they have tried assassination it's not going to happen, not without total regime destabilisation.
Quote:
Nor you and me neither the protestors know about the strategy of that war. Iraq is very high on the list of terror supporting countries. Even if its not #1 on the list, its maybe #1 on the list of targets strategy-wise. Smart people plan these moves. Have more trust in them than people who run out the streets with "killer" signs.
|
Paul Wolfowitz and co. wanted iraq well before 9/11, it had little to do with terrorism. No.. I certainly don't trust politicians and career lackeys running their own agendas.
Tell me how Saudi Arabia can be #4 or #5 on their list when thats where 9/11 terrorists came from? Iraq isn't anywhere near the terrorist threat they are. The only proven terror they support are donations to palestinians.
Quote:
Being affraid of protecting yourself for fear of possible reaction/retaliation from your already enemy is silly. You probably know what I mean. If not - think about it again.
|
it's not a fear of self protection, it's a fear of how the "self protection" is being implemented.
Quote:
Again you go with "believe". What people believe is not important. what people know is important. Most of those who "believe" its not the right way have NO CLUE at all as to other possible course of action.
|
without clairvoyance we can't know.. so it's a moot point. Im not talking about belief in a god, or belief in something that isn't possible to proove.. im talking a belief in a position interpreted from the facts. You can't "know" with 100% certainty anything about this war other than that the US will crush Iraq.
The FACT that this action, and even the talk of action is inflaming anti-US sentiment in muslim countries, the FACT that Al-Quaeda will be able to use this as propaganda to recruit people, the FACT that innocent civilians will die and their families will hate the US for it, and the FACT that Iraq has had no proven links to Al-Quaeda and they hate each other, so much so that the CIA guys laughed at the propganda, that there are at least five countries that are a more immediate terrorist threat leads people to believe that it will create more terrorists.. not some wishy washy "feeling" or "belief".
Do we know that it will create more terrorists? no.
can we construct a stance based on what we know? yes. is it right? who knows.. thats why it's a belief.
Invading Iraq in this way certainly isn't going to make militant muslims and more moderate ones becoming angrier and more happy with us.