Russian Conspiracy. All passengers on flight were already dead.

[eipstudios]

1.Russian news says the pilots jumped from the plane after take off.

2.This is the missing Malaysian flight and America plan this from the beginning

3.Did you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin?s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Well, it?s all true?at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you?d be seeing.

As the crisis surrounding the plane crash deepens and as calls for Vladimir Putin to act grow louder, it?s worth noting that they?re not really getting through to Putin?s subjects. The picture of the catastrophe that the Russian people are seeing on their television screens is very different from that on screens in much of the rest of the world, and the discrepancy does not bode well for a sane resolution to this stand-off.

Western media has been vacillating for days between calling Putin a murderer and peppering their coverage with allegedlys, telling the heart-rending tales of the victims, scrounging for anonymous leaks to link the Russians to the downed jet, and punditizing about exit ramps.

But in Russia, television?most of it owned or controlled by the Kremlin?is trying to muddy the water with various experts who insist that there is no way that an SA-11 missile system could possibly have downed a plane flying that high. And, mind you, this is not part of a larger debate of could they, or couldn?t they; this is all of Russian television and state-friendly papers pushing one line: The pro-Russian separatists we?ve been supporting all these months couldn?t have done this. Watching some of these Russian newscasts, one comes away with the impression of a desperate defense attorney scrounging for experts and angles, or a bad kid caught red-handed by the principal, trying to twist his way out of a situation in which he has no chance.

And that?s when they?re not simply peddling conspiracy theories, which have become a kind of symbiotic feedback loop between state TV and the most inventive corners of the Internet. The best of the bunch is, of course, an elaborate one: MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn?t disappear at all, ?it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.?

Then it was taken to Holland. On the necessary day and hour, it flew out, bound for Malaysia, but inside were not live people, but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots; it was on autopilot. Or take-off (a complicated procedure) was executed by live pilots, who then ejected on parachutes. Then the plane flew automatically. In the necessary spot, it was blown up, without even using a surface-to-air missile. Instead the plane was packed with a bomb, just like the CIA did on 9/11.

The theory also notes that the passports of victims at the crash site all look brand new even though there was an explosion and a fire. ?That is, the passports were tossed in [after the crash].? And, most damningly, all the victims? Facebook pages were created in one day and the media is not showing any of the victims? families, just the crash site. Though this is not true of Western media, Russian television has not featured any of this. ?There?s very little talk about the human cost of this catastrophe,? says independent television analyst Arina Borodina, formerly of the prominent Russian daily Kommersant. ?Instead we?re seeing these unbelievable versions. For example, that someone had actually been hunting for the president or that some of the locals saw parachutists coming down from a height of 30,000 feet.?

But though it may look unconvincing to us in the West, that is because we have seen and read other things that contradict it. The Russian media space has become so uniform and independent voices so cowed and marginalized that there is no counterweight and, when there?s no counterweight, if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes the truth.

http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...f-2995572.html

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...eady-dead.html

[just a punk]

I see only western "news" sites there. Any links to Russian sources?

[seeandsee]

Let's start 3rd world war and finish this planet

[MrDeiz]

orthodox ruski christians can't lie like bitches. must be true then

[eipstudios]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

I see only western "news" sites there. Any links to Russian sources?

My girl is Estonian/Russian. She is reading all this from Russian sites and Russian TV. This what I found when I Googled what she told me.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by eipstudios

My girl is Estonian/Russian. She is reading all this from Russian sites and Russian TV. This what I found when I Googled what she told me.

So again. Got any links?

[Ferus]

And how do you know it isent the truth? because the "western" news reported it differently?

[Oracle Porn]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

So again. Got any links?

just watch any russia1 (or it's sister channels) evening news...it's so 1 sided i want to throw up

[woj]

Originally Posted by Ferus

And how do you know it isent the truth? because the "western" news reported it differently?

because there is only one simple straightforward explanation:
rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks, so they accidentally downed this one too...

all other explanations involve some kooky conspiracy theories...

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by woj

because there is only one simple straightforward explanation:
rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks, so they accidentally downed this one too...

all other explanations involve some kooky conspiracy theories...

"kooky conspiracy theories"?

Not really.

Sure, its "most likely" have been shot down by seperatists, but like everyone else, you dont have any facts - just what the news claims so far.

The seperatists and the Ukraine army have the same kind of uneducated triggerhappy fuckups among their ranks. So untill there are solid evidence, we really dont know what happened.

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by eipstudios

My girl is Estonian/Russian. She is reading all this from Russian sites and Russian TV. This what I found when I Googled what she told me.

Have your Estonian/Russian girl show you the links then.

[woj]

Originally Posted by Ferus

"kooky conspiracy theories"?

Not really.

Sure, its "most likely" have been shot down by seperatists, but like everyone else, you dont have any facts - just what the news claims so far.

The seperatists and the Ukraine army have the same kind of uneducated triggerhappy fuckups among their ranks. So untill there are solid evidence, we really dont know what happened.

we have plenty of facts:

1. we know for a fact that rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks with a SAM system...

2. the plane was downed by a SAM system, everyone agrees on that fact, even Russia...

3. we know for a fact that debris from the explosion landed in rebel controlled area, and given these missiles have limited range, it's almost a certainty they were fired from within that area...

put the facts above together and it's almost a certainty that rebels downed this airplane...

not to mention there are other details, a bit less credible than hard facts listed above, like the twitter post about rebels bragging they downed the airplane + phone conversation intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence...

all other explanations have zero credible evidence attached to them, all they are is pure conspiracy theories...

[pornmasta]

Originally Posted by eipstudios

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

a small war at worst, but i'm SURE it won't be a BIG war.

[eipstudios]

http://jadore-odessa.livejournal.com/318532.html

[dehash]

Originally Posted by woj

we have plenty of facts:

1. we know for a fact that rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks with a SAM system...

2. the plane was downed by a SAM system, everyone agrees on that fact, even Russia...

3. we know for a fact that debris from the explosion landed in rebel controlled area, and given these missiles have limited range, it's almost a certainty they were fired from within that area...

put the facts above together and it's almost a certainty that rebels downed this airplane...

not to mention there are other details, a bit less credible than hard facts listed above, like the twitter post about rebels bragging they downed the airplane + phone conversation intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence...

all other explanations have zero credible evidence attached to them, all they are is pure conspiracy theories...

I am not impressed with your "facts". You can only guess. Separatist didn't take previous planes from alt. 10K meters.
And you forgot about Ukrainian military jet in this area at same moment.

[bronco67]

They really are dumb to think we're dumb enough to believe that shit.

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by woj

we have plenty of facts:

1. we know for a fact that rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks with a SAM system...

2. the plane was downed by a SAM system, everyone agrees on that fact, even Russia...

3. we know for a fact that debris from the explosion landed in rebel controlled area, and given these missiles have limited range, it's almost a certainty they were fired from within that area...

put the facts above together and it's almost a certainty that rebels downed this airplane...

not to mention there are other details, a bit less credible than hard facts listed above, like the twitter post about rebels bragging they downed the airplane + phone conversation intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence...

all other explanations have zero credible evidence attached to them, all they are is pure conspiracy theories...

4. They're the only ones with a reason to shoot at airplanes, because their enemy has an air force and they don't.

[dehash]

Originally Posted by bronco67

They really are dumb to think we're dumb enough to believe that shit.

No, there is other reasons - kill innocent people to set up separatist and Russia. Stop fucking game towards one side.

Double standards :
if plane was hit by separatist - it is terrorism
if plane was hit by Ukrainian govt. - mistake

Wait until black box data gets released.

[Fat Panda]

nato needs to open the flood gates on these russian parasites

[eipstudios]

[MrTrollkien]

Originally Posted by dehash

No, there is other reasons - kill innocent people to set up separatist and Russia. Stop fucking game towards one side.

Double standards :
if plane was hit by separatist - it is terrorism
if plane was hit by Ukrainian govt. - mistake

Wait until black box data gets released.

the same with Israel - Palestine case...

[Sid70]

No tits in the thread, only ruskies.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by Oracle Porn

just watch any russia1 (or it's sister channels) evening news...it's so 1 sided i want to throw up

I don't watch that garbage. The only news channel I watch here is TV Rain. On the other hand, I'm reading Russian news on the Internet (e.g. rbc.ru and lenta.ru) and I haven't seen this conspiracy there. Actually this why I was asking for the links to Russian media sources - just want to read it in the original language and then compare with the western version.

[PaperstreetWinston]

Originally Posted by MrTrollkien

the same with Israel - Palestine case...

word. media works for those in power.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by Ferus

The seperatists and the Ukraine army have the same kind of uneducated triggerhappy fuckups among their ranks. So untill there are solid evidence, we really dont know what happened.

Absolutely correct. There are two bunch of monkeys from the both sides. They both can do it with a 50/50 probability. Let's just wait for the international investigation results.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by woj

we have plenty of facts:

1. we know for a fact that rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks with a SAM system...

2. the plane was downed by a SAM system, everyone agrees on that fact, even Russia...

3. we know for a fact that debris from the explosion landed in rebel controlled area, and given these missiles have limited range, it's almost a certainty they were fired from within that area...

put the facts above together and it's almost a certainty that rebels downed this airplane...

not to mention there are other details, a bit less credible than hard facts listed above, like the twitter post about rebels bragging they downed the airplane + phone conversation intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence...

all other explanations have zero credible evidence attached to them, all they are is pure conspiracy theories...

If you sum it up, you will see that right now you know nothing and a lot of facts just missing in your list (the Ukrainian army SAM activity in that area right before the indecent (8 "Купол" systems were active w/o a reason), the Ukrainian jet-fighter near the plane etc). You are a coder, right? Wait for the real facts and use your logic.

P.S. The "Ukrainian intelligence" sounds like a joke

[Oracle Porn]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

I don't watch that garbage. The only news channel....

this isn't a debate about what you watch or not....just proving my point...I don't need a translator to understand russian news are trying to spin this like crazy and are totally one sided.

[pornmasta]

Originally Posted by PDeluxe

word. media works for those in power.

... in the country where they are...

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by eipstudios

http://jadore-odessa.livejournal.com/318532.html

Sorry, but this is some personal opinion a social network. You were asked for the sources in Russian media. Preferable for the government-controlled ones.

[Oracle Porn]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

a lot of facts just missing in your list (the Ukrainian army SAM activity in that area right before the indecent (8 "Купол" systems were active w/o a reason), the Ukrainian jet-fighter near the plane etc).

a lot of facts are missing from your list too...why were they cleaning up the place of the first day? why was there problems getting the bodies, why did they collect them themselves, why were not all the bodies sent to kharkiav? all kind of shit, the facts you mention are yet to be proved beyond any doubt, my facts are actual facts raising eyebrows all around the world....

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by bronco67

4. They're the only ones with a reason to shoot at airplanes, because their enemy has an air force and they don't.

And who is that, Sir? Once again: the Ukrainian army has moved their BUK systems into that region right before the accident. They have 8 (fuckin' eight!) "Купол" system active right before the accident (note that separatists have no aviation, so such an activity is very superstitious). There was an Ukrainian army jet fighter near the plane right before the accident. They have pulled their BUK's back right after the accident.

Too many facts that need to be explained, isn't it?

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by Oracle Porn

this isn't a debate about what you watch or not....just proving my point...I don't need a translator to understand russian news are trying to spin this like crazy and are totally one sided.

Sergey, of course they are. In a same way as Western media does it from the other side.

P.S. No links -> nothing to discuss then.

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

And who is that, Sir? One again: the Ukrainian army as moved their BUK systems into that region right before the accident. They have 8 (fuckin' eight!) "Купол" system active right before the accident (nothe that separatists have no aviation, so such an activity is very superstitious). There was an Ukrainian army jet fighter near the plane right before the accident. The have pulled their BUK's back right after the accident.

Too many facts than need to be expained, isn't it?

I said that the rebels don't have an air force...so what reason does Ukraine have to be shooting missiles? You have really hard time understanding basic concepts.

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by woj

we have plenty of facts:

1. we know for a fact that rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks with a SAM system...

2. the plane was downed by a SAM system, everyone agrees on that fact, even Russia...

3. we know for a fact that debris from the explosion landed in rebel controlled area, and given these missiles have limited range, it's almost a certainty they were fired from within that area...

put the facts above together and it's almost a certainty that rebels downed this airplane...

not to mention there are other details, a bit less credible than hard facts listed above, like the twitter post about rebels bragging they downed the airplane + phone conversation intercepted by Ukrainian intelligence...

all other explanations have zero credible evidence attached to them, all they are is pure conspiracy theories...

Those are not facts, its speculations. That is the kind of thinking that escalate this even further.


But keep in mind I started out saying "it was most likely the seperatists" but there is a long way to solid evidence yet.

Facts:
The Ukrainian army are the source of the SAM(BUK) system. The rebels stole one, but the army still have most of them left.

The Ukrainian army have been shooting at the civilians for monthe with tanks and fighter/bomber planes

..so what makes you think some nutcase in the army wouldent fire at a airplane if he thought it was Russian or a transporter that supported the seperatists?

As I said, its risky to point fingers when it comes to a smoking gun, because there are very Little FACTS yet.

It's not like there are two clearly defined armies fighting Agains eachother. It's mainly the Ukraine army Agains seperatists, but the seperatists are several different Groups. The press often call's one of them the "leader of the seperatists", but there are several other Groups at play

... its not as Black/White as the press wants it to look like

[woj]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

If you sum it up, you will see that right now you knows nothing and a lot of facts just missing in your list (the Ukrainian army SAM activity in that area right before the indecent (8 "Купол" systems were active w/o a reason), the Ukrainian jet-fighter near the plane etc). You are a coder, right? Wait for the real facts and use your logic.

P.S. The "Ukrainian intelligence" sounds like a joke

- SAM activity is completely normal in time of conflict and Ukraine has no obligation to explain their military strategy to anyone
- the theory that jets were present is far from an undisputed fact, I don't follow this too closely, but isn't it basically one guy saying he saw a blip on a radar, and then Russia picking up on it, and saying "we saw it too"? but even still, what's the significance of those jets, besides trying to add confusing details in attempt to muddy the water?

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by bronco67

I said that the rebels don't have an air force...so what reason does Ukraine have to be shooting missiles? You have really hard time understanding basic concepts.

They will shoot at those aircrafts they think support the rebels.

And if they did not have a reason to use them, why are they moving them around, positioning them in areas where they fight? Its hardly because they are moving them to safeto.

I belive (its not a fact) they do it because they expect/fear the russian army will move in to disarm everyone.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by bronco67

I said that the rebels don't have an air force....

So why the Ukrainian army has moved BUK's to that area and pulled them back right after if? Any ideas?

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by woj

the theory

This is a key phrase for all your "facts". Once again, don't pretend to be an expert. Just wait for the official investigation results

[woj]

Originally Posted by Ferus

Those are not facts, its speculations. That is the kind of thinking that escalate this even further.


But keep in mind I started out saying "it was most likely the seperatists" but there is a long way to solid evidence yet.

Facts:
The Ukrainian army are the source of the SAM(BUK) system. The rebels stole one, but the army still have most of them left.

The Ukrainian army have been shooting at the civilians for monthe with tanks and fighter/bomber planes

..so what makes you think some nutcase in the army wouldent fire at a airplane if he thought it was Russian or a transporter that supported the seperatists?

As I said, its risky to point fingers when it comes to a smoking gun, because there are very Little FACTS yet.

It's not like there are two clearly defined armies fighting Agains eachother. It's mainly the Ukraine army Agains seperatists, but the seperatists are several different Groups. The press often call's one of them the "leader of the seperatists", but there are several other Groups at play

... its not as Black/White as the press wants it to look like

the facts I listed are 100% undisputed facts, only the conclusions one draws from them may be different... which fact I listed is debatable you think? show me some contrary evidence...


"..so what makes you think some nutcase in the army wouldent fire at a airplane if he thought it was Russian or a transporter that supported the seperatists?"

the airplane was on a path from northwest to south east Ukraine minutes away from leaving Ukrainian airspace, so it would make zero sense that anyone (except the rebels) could confuse an aircraft going in that direction as hostile...

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by woj

- the theory that jets were present is far from an undisputed fact, I don't follow this too closely, but isn't it basically one guy saying he saw a blip on a radar, and then Russia picking up on it, and saying "we saw it too"? but even still, what's the significance of those jets, besides trying to add confusing details in attempt to muddy the water?

It not just "bleeps" - its tracking of the transponder in the plane, its not that just show up
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-9619143.html

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by Ferus

The Ukrainian army have been shooting at the civilians for monthe with tanks and fighter/bomber planes

The another fact is that the Ukrainian army has shot down Russian-Israel civilian flight in 2001 w/o any reason (they just took down a "wrong target"). And there was no war or something like that. They just were training to use SAM's...

[Ferus]

Originally Posted by woj

the facts I listed are 100% undisputed facts...

Cant debate further, if that is what you think. You are sadly naive

[Sid70]

Russian asshat is LVL80 today!

[woj]

Originally Posted by Ferus

It not just "bleeps" - its tracking of the transponder in the plane, its not that just show up
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-9619143.html

one just has to read the first sentence: "A senior Russian officer has claimed"
not exactly an undisputed fact that can easily be verified

[woj]

Originally Posted by CyberSEO

The another fact is that the Ukrainian army has shot down Russian-Israel civilian flight in 2001 w/o any reason (they just took down a "wrong target"). And there was no war or something like that. They just were training to use SAM's...

perhaps they did indeed shoot it down, but what does a military exercise gone wrong 13 years ago have to do with current events we are discussing?

[dehash]

Originally Posted by woj

perhaps they did indeed shoot it down, but what does a military exercise gone wrong 13 years ago have to do with current events we are discussing?

It is fact from same category you have:
"rebels downed multiple airplanes in the past weeks, so they accidentally downed this one too..."

and his point

" another a fact is that the Ukrainian army has shot down Russian-Israel civilian flight in 2001 w/o any reason (they just took down a "wrong target"). And there was no war or something like that. They just were training to use SAM's... "

Don't you see how it works? You just use some doubtful facts in your favor only, it is called "double standards". You accusing people before official investigation complete.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by woj

perhaps they did indeed shoot it down, but what does a military exercise gone wrong 13 years ago have to do with current events we are discussing?

Unprofessionalism.

[Rochard]

After 9/11, everything is a conspiracy.

Sure sure, the Dutch just loaded up a plane full of dead bodies and exploded it over Ukraine. Sure.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by seeandsee

Let's start 3rd world war and finish this planet

Hell YEAH

[crockett]

Ok I also have a theory.. Putin has little tiny space aliens inside his head and they control his every move.. Seems much more realistic than dead corpses on a plane..