Obamacare deemed illegal by Federal Appeals

[_Richard_]

Harry Reid.. isn't that the guy who sent a bunch of snipers to take out that rancher? and the bizarre land troop/fficers who were tazing pregnant women and the like?

the guy with a bunch of people surrounding him getting investigated for campaign donation fraud?

the guy all wrapped up in fracking, big oil, and basically everything bad?

'obamacare' is very much a republican propaganda tool. but i apologize using the term. i believe it was democrats who killed this due voter bases and a series of other reasons. however, with how i have laid out the 'leader' of democrats.. these guys seem as bad as 'republicans' now.

Originally Posted by kane

My understanding is that they removed the public option because many moderate democrats were worried about it. At that time there were a large contingent of what they called "Blue Dog" democrats who had won seats in what were often republican and conservative areas. These democrats were a lot more moderate than many others. They were worried that if they passed a public option and basically gave government healthcare to everyone that they wouldn't get re-elected so they threatened to vote against it unless it was changed.

ahh, thank you sir. i believe lobbyists heavily come into this as well, as a lot of the democrats are funded by the health industry? i could be mistaken

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by Robbie

There was nothing cherry picked. I didn't say a word about 1999 other than that graph showed the numbers going back that far.

I was more concerned with recent history. Like starting in 2009 when Pres. Obama took office.

And brother...I've pretty much come to the conclusion that you don't have the intellectual weight to try and tell me a damn thing. You have shown yourself to be an absolute sheep to the Democrat Party.

And just like Chris Matthews...I bet you get a "thrill running down your leg" when you hear Pres. Obama give speeches.

"Cherry Picked" What a goddamned idiotic thing to say.

You sure seem to think "percentage" is the correct way to do taxes instead of actual dollars. LOL

I got some news for you genius: if a higher percentage of the population from 2009 to the first quarter of 2014 had no insurance...the ACTUAL NUMBERS are way bigger than any that you are babbling about from 1999.

You said it yourself. Goddamn the foolishness of this. Why are you deliberately making yourself look so fucking bad?

Answer this simple question....regardless of whether or not Obamacare is actually working(or not)

-- do YOU want it to work, or have any kind of hope that it could work?

The answer to this question may have something to do with how you present "facts". You look at a chart and instantly see the facts skewed to fit what you want the answer to be. Then you find out you're wrong. It's been in the news quite a bit that Obamacare is doing pretty well, despite how badly conservatives (that's you) want it to fail.

[kane]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

Harry Reid.. isn't that the guy who sent a bunch of snipers to take out that rancher? and the bizarre land troop/fficers who were tazing pregnant women and the like?

the guy with a bunch of people surrounding him getting investigated for campaign donation fraud?

the guy all wrapped up in fracking, big oil, and basically everything bad?

'obamacare' is very much a republican propaganda tool. but i apologize using the term. i believe it was democrats who killed this due voter bases and a series of other reasons. however, with how i have laid out the 'leader' of democrats.. these guys seem as bad as 'republicans' now.



ahh, thank you sir. i believe lobbyists heavily come into this as well, as a lot of the democrats are funded by the health industry? i could be mistaken

I have no doubt in my mind lobbyists played a huge role in this. They shit their pants when they thought it was going to have a public option, but once that went away the insurance industry shut up because they knew they were about to be handed a bunch of cash.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by kane

I have no doubt in my mind lobbyists played a huge role in this. They shit their pants when they thought it was going to have a public option, but once that went away the insurance industry shut up because they knew they were about to be handed a bunch of cash.

exactly how i remember it. and since i shouldn't even bother with any of this at all, i definitely can't spend the time digging all the articles up that proves it.

especially considering today, 2+2=5

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I didn't "Choose" it. I googled up for the info. First page was almost all right winger sites attacking ObamaCare

The only one I could find that I THOUGHT would be acceptable to Obamapologists was the Wiki page.
Obviously I was wrong.

I guess I could put Youtube vids of Pres. Obama giving speeches telling us how ObamaCare was going to work (and lying) and you wouldn't accept that either.

I'm starting to think that if you, me, and Pres. Obama got drunk and he laughed and told us that he thinks it sucks too...you'd probably blame George Bush. lol

Nice dodge of my question about if you will admit you were wrong about less People being covered when I fact it is more. Then again, I knew before I asked, that you would never admit that you were wrong. I knew you would do just what you did, dodge the question and change the topic.

Why is it so hard to admit it might be working Robbie?

Hell I openly support Obamacare, but I'm not so stuck up with my own agenda to not admit that it's not perfect and yes it does have problems. Meanwhile you just can't bring yourself to ever say that Obama might have managed to do something even half right..

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by Robbie

What is the "public option"?

EDIT: Okay, I took my own advice and looked it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...surance_option

Apparently this is what Pres. Obama actually campaigned on according to what I read there...and then backed off on it in favor of ObamaCare when he actually became President.

It was basically a govt. run insurance agency that would compete with private run insurance agencies.

And of course...just like the "single pay" (income tax paying for it)...there was no way in hell that the giant Insurance companies were ever gonna let that pass.

Pretty much. Unlike Obamacare a public option would have actually provided a good form of cost control. There is NO WAY they wanted the competition. They know government run health insurance would actually be pretty good and would eat into their profits, much better to jump through a few hoops to get the government to force them to have tens of millions of new customers with weaker cost controls.

Otherwise you'd think the idea would be theoretically possible to sell to freedom loving americans being only an "option" in the market they could take or leave. Although judging by the propaganda around obamacare it would probably still get called a "GUBMINT TAKEOVER" or the "DEATH PANEL OPTION".

Personally I think as long as people are free to take out private health insurance it shouldn't matter what poorer people do on government based options.

We have single payer in my country and it works quite well but I also have private health insurance so for example when we had our baby we had a nice hotel-like room to ourselves both me and my partner slept in for a week at the hospital with the baby with ocean views and nurses who took the baby out of the room to settle her and let us catch up on sleep after the birth. No sharing a room with another couple who's visiting family might come in with coughs and colds to give to the newborns like you might have to in a public hospital (you can get single rooms in public hospitals but not guaranteed.) I can claim back all sort of crap on private health insurance, eg massages and acupuncture (although I don't believe in it) and it doesn't cost a lot because it has to compete with the free single payer system and things like MRI's don't have a bloated cost around it as both single payer and private health people use the same machines in most towns.

The only real issue is they kinda force you onto it if you're high income. Basically they make you pay a levy if you're rich enough to afford it but don't choose to take it up. The levy is about the cost of private health insurance so it's a bit silly not to take it up. But that's how good the underlying public system is in the public's eye, not enough wealthier people were taking up private insurance instead favoring the public system! (not rich rich.. but like if your family income is 175-200k is starts to kick in at a low level)

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by bronco67

Answer this simple question....regardless of whether or not Obamacare is actually working(or not)

-- do YOU want it to work, or have any kind of hope that it could work?

The answer to this question may have something to do with how you present "facts". You look at a chart and instantly see the facts skewed to fit what you want the answer to be. Then you find out you're wrong. It's been in the news quite a bit that Obamacare is doing pretty well, despite how badly conservatives (that's you) want it to fail.

I didn't "find out I was wrong".

Up until THIS last quarter less people were insured than ObamaCare.

How the hell can you see it as I was "wrong"?
I don't make the data. I just googled it and presented what I thought was the latest data.

Do I want it to "work"? You mean the way it was presented to us by the President? Hell yes!
If we like our insurance we can keep it.
We can keep our doctor.
The cost for the average family will go DOWN $2,500 a year
It won't cost the taxpayers "One thin dime" (the President's quote that he used in speech after speech)

That version of ObamaCare sounded wonderful to me.

But this isn't a case of "wishing". I don't live in fantasyland. I live in reality.

And in reality, the numbers aren't adding up.

I want the answer to be that everybody is doing great!
I also would like to skip amongst unicorns and rainbows.

I'm sorry if reality is trumping good intentions. That's not my fault.

But to simply ignore that the President made a shit ton of assurances and they haven't come to pass is just foolish.
And to read some of the posts on here with people thinking that the healthcare bill was somehow changed to be what it is because of "republicans" is just amazing to me.

I HOPE that it somehow works out.

I question whether the huge influx of new people on medicare is going to allow the numbers to work. And "yes", it's going to cost the taxpayers way more than "one thin dime".

I also find it amusing that some of the guys on here, who seem to worship the Pres. like a God, don't seem to understand the consequences of all of this.

Putting this in place when the economy was pretty much in shambles wasn't the smartest thing. At a time when what we REALLY needed was more good paying, full time jobs...this extra burden on employers is risky to say the least.

Just heard today on the news that the IMF has now lowered the forecast for growth in the U.S. economy for 2014 to the lowest since 2009.
Most of that they are attributing to "weather related problems" in the first quarter (half the country was frozen for weeks...blame it on "global warming" lol).

Do I think that the economy is Obama's fault? Nope. It was the housing market collapse in 2008 that pushed us into hell.

Do I think he could have done a much better job at creating opportunities for business to recover? Hell yes I do.

Do I think he should have put the majority of his time and effort for the first two years into a law that forces people to buy expensive health insurance when they didn't even have a job? Fuck no.

I also question WHY he keeps changing the law to suit his own needs. It's a law passed by Congress. And he keeps changing it to keep Democrats out of hot water in elections because people don't like it.

If it's so damn good...then WHY does he keep doing that? Why not implement it fully and let us all bask in the goodness of ObamaCare?

I'm serious about that. Do you know why?
Is it the EVIL Republicans that are causing him to unilaterally change and delay the law so he can get the fuck out of office before it ever takes hold?

These are questions that I think a rational person should ask. Especially when I see my health insurance premium jumping higher at a faster rate than ever before.

I'm just a member of an "average American family". We don't have any health problems. So why the hell is mine going up instead of going down by $2,500 like the President promised?

But apparently, if I dare to bring any of this up...I'm a "conservative" a "rightwinger" and I'm "cherry picking" stuff.

Why the fuck would I intentionally cherry pick stuff when I'm talking to a bunch of people on a porn webmaster board? I don't know you. Or half of these people.

And you don't know me.

So why would I bother to try and slant a discussion to some "agenda" that doesn't exist?

But I swear...unless you conform and agree 100% with whatever the Democrat Party says...then you are branded a "conservative".
It's frustrating to say the least.

I feel depressed over the whole thing. It appears to me that many people are engaged in "group think" and of course can't see it happening. But what else would you call it when you are instantly a "conservative" if you don't agree with something that the Democrat Party decrees?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by crockett

Nice dodge of my question about if you will admit you were wrong about less People being covered when I fact it is more. T.

This was my post right after Barry found the updated graph with the latest quarter listed.
And fuck you:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Now that is great news! The one I posted was the first quarter. I found it by googling.

Looks like the poll is in for the second quarter and now there are actually more people insured!

So that is good news for ObamaCare!

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

because.. the only way it was passed was due to the concessions made to appease the companies/lobbists/republicans/libertarians who fear change?




yes, i can see how you're not labelling and not prejudging very clearly. i am saddened that you haven't gone after a art forms.. as well as your easy jab at standard vs margin. or the insinuation after. but, live and learn.

Please name one Libertarian Party member who had significant impact on the ultimate form of ACA.

The insurance and big pharma companies do not "fear change". This was change they wanted, change which will make them very rich.

Are you attempting to defend something bad by saying that the people who made bad policy did not like it either?

What are you talking about regarding art forms???

If you didn't want to get into a conversation about survey methodologies because you don't actually know anything about them, why did you go all ballistic on Robbie about what Gallup's methodology is?

Have you googled your preferred Standard Oil yet?

[Axeman]

Eleven out of 12 fake applications for government-subsidized health insurance got through a verification process and the bogus beneficiaries are still covered, the Government Accountability Office said Tuesday.

The GAO launched the sting to check to see how well the Obamacare process checks for counterfeit applications. The results were messy, GAO?s Seto Bagdoyan says in testimony prepared for a hearing Wednesday of the House Ways and Means oversight subcommittee.

?The federal marketplace approved coverage for 11 of our 12 fictitious applicants who initially applied online, or by telephone,? Bagdoyan, who directs GAO?s Forensic Audits and Investigative Service, said in testimony obtained by NBC News.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health...emiums-n162456

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

Please name one Libertarian Party member who had significant impact on the ultimate form of ACA.

The insurance and big pharma companies do not "fear change". This was change they wanted, change which will make them very rich.

Are you attempting to defend something bad by saying that the people who made bad policy did not like it either?

What are you talking about regarding art forms???

If you didn't want to get into a conversation about survey methodologies because you don't actually know anything about them, why did you go all ballistic on Robbie about what Gallup's methodology is?

Have you googled your preferred Standard Oil yet?

Originally Posted by _Richard_

a graph with no links to figure out how this poll was done isn't being 'slapped in the face with reality'

ballistic?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

ballistic?

Richard, you obviously have no idea how you are making yourself look in this thread.

Bad for you personally and bad for business all the way around.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Richard, you obviously have no idea how you are making yourself look in this thread.

Bad for you personally and bad for business all the way around.

Originally Posted by Robbie

Dude, if you really believe the Gallup Poll is fake...then I don't know what to say to you.

JUST GOOGLE UP HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE US ARE UNINSURED FOR YOURSELF. Find as many stats as you want. They will all show you that more are uninsured now than before.

Jesus Fucking Christ.

right.

anyway..

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

ballistic?

The way Gallup polls are performed is pretty standard. You went all ballistic cross-examining attorney on Robbie for basically not including a footnote saying: Like all Gallup polls and similar polls of the last near century, this one probably used the same methods anyone who knows anything about polls would expect.

Organizations like Gallup and Pew Research have been fairly transparent about their methodologies for almost 100 years. Everyone familiar with survey systems knows this. Most people are not familiar with the finer points of statistical modeling and yet they can still have a civil conversation which includes survey results.

You don't know probability theory, but you want to go ballistic at Robbie for not appending it to his survey chart embed.

You can't name a Libertarian who impacted ACA, but you assert they did.

You can't name a Republican who impacted ACA, but you assert they did.

Your avatar text suggests you are Canadian, but you think it is okay to be contemptuous of Americans sharing their actual experiences.

You say an offshoot of Standard Oil is probably more reliable than Gallup. I don't believe anyone is that stupid, so I think you said that just to act like you'd be open to a reasonable survey if it slapped you in the face. Have you googled Standard Oil yet?

[_Richard_]

i didn't want to point out a series of reasons why it was hilarious he was trying to use the poll the way he was.

is that ok Amelia

[Robbie]

Richard, I'm done with you man. Don't talk to me anymore. And don't come near me at shows.

Insulting my intelligence when you are the one on here posting like a retard is laughable at best. Fuck you.

[_Richard_]

sounds good

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

i didn't want to point out a series of reasons why it was hilarious he was trying to use the poll the way he was.

is that ok Amelia

It is customary to quote what you are replying to. Is that okay?

You think it is hilarious that, according to survey data, ACA was behind 2008 numbers through the end of 2013, but fractionally rallied at the beginning of 2014 and everyone seeing that was pleased that at least it is a little better? Why is that funny? Why is it easier to act like you never heard of Gallup and demonstrate that you never heard of Standard Oil?

You still haven't answered any if the questions I asked, but that is okay because I understand that the reason is that you either do not know or are a bad person or both.

[_Richard_]

lol wow .

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Richard, I'm done with you man. Don't talk to me anymore. And don't come near me at shows.

Insulting my intelligence when you are the one on here posting like a retard is laughable at best. Fuck you.

You are right, Robbie.

I listen to perspectives other than my own. I like to learn and I keep an open mind.

Unfortunately, trying to parse the ranting of imbeciles who are too stupid and incompetent to even quote reply, much less discuss issues ... well, it's kind of a waste of mental energy.

One more for the ignore list. That guy just sig whore for Sextronix or that his?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

You are right, Robbie.

I listen to perspectives other than my own. I like to learn and I keep an open mind.

Unfortunately, trying to parse the ranting of imbeciles who are too stupid and incompetent to even quote reply, much less discuss issues ... well, it's kind of a waste of mental energy.

One more for the ignore list. That guy just sig whore for Sextronix or that his?

He's an employee. Always thought he was a nice enough guy. I literally have no idea what the fuck is wrong with him in this thread.

Sextronix must be proud of the job he is doing here tonight.