MCFan

What do you think about current situation in Catalonia with tomorrow's expected referendum and punitive actions taken by central government that might throw the country towards civil war?

Where do you draw the line between people's right to self-determination and constitutional laws that hold a country together?

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pimpmaster9000

Well the UN went to war over ex-yugo states right to independence so I see no reason not to let Catalonia split...if they don't support independence they will make pooty chuckle as well...Crimea river...

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mineistaken

Thread over nothing. Anyone give less than 100.00% that it won't happen? I mean it is ot even worth debating (except for the sake of theoretical point of view).

Having said that - lots of Americans would not mind getting rid of that libby and invaders cesspool (normal people would simply move back to the states).

CaptainHowdy

Let them have it ...

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klinton

America, America, America.... big country, big nation, built by immigrants that are proud to be Americans

but what about Slovakia ? Did it secure itself corridor to sea access ? How is it going a construction of first Slovakian aircraft ? Can a Gypsy become a Slovak general ?

as for the OP: that would be bad thing for both sides, both for Catalonia and Spain...Guess some people in Catalonia want to make even bigger money by being independent from los Cabrones del Gobierno Espanol...they think shortterm and in egoistic way, thats my opinion at leats

klinton

UN went to war ? been always thinking that was the proud Royal Serbian Army and its huge military power that wanted to stop other republics from splitting with Yugo...but what do I know...

mineistaken

LEGAL immigrants.
You crookedteers seem to always forget this "minor" detail.

mineistaken

By the way it was my mistake, I read the title as California.

Paul Markham

They should hold the referendum and Spain has to respect the result.

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klinton

many of them actually became "legal" because of naturalization proccesses that do happened many times in US history.
They had to work, they had to do business, they built America

pimpmaster9000

Actually it was separatists supported by the west who made the government react like any other government would...it was Yugoslavia not Serbia...every other government would do the same...right or wrong it was not the point...the point is, if Catalonia votes out, the UN should support them separating...like it did with Croatia and Bosnia and Kosovo...this opens the door for others, republika srpska included...

I just want to LOL when they apply a double standard...I hope it ends peacefully but I guarantee they will find an excuse why this is "different" LOL

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klinton

Republika Srpbska wants to split again ? OH COME ON !!!! I recently passed it in 2 hours by car !

you will have to mount that state of art tech S-500 in Sarajevo and Sofia just to cover it all !

like I said, I see no chances for Catalian going out separately...the only people that wants it are big catalan fishes, like businessmen, and some municipity workers (to steal more without control)..for the rest of Catalans it will suck

NatalieK

it´s so sad how Catalonian people feel they are not Spanish, the young think they speak a different language, but this is the same in every country, it´s a different dialect, not language. Catalonia is an area, like a county in Britain or state in the US.

Everyone in the world are going mental for division, first Trump and his wall, the division between north & south, then the UK with Brexit, now Catalonia & Spain.

This is the most idiocy yet though...

next all states & counties will want to remain on their own

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NatalieK

why do you like division so much?


Spain has to respect a decision that some people want to live in their own country when it is Spain? Next Yorkshire or Essex will want their own government or Washington or Florida...

it´s ludicrous like any division, become one and become stronger

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Tasty1

If they want independence they should have a referendum about leaving the EU

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NatalieK

I think it´s just a reason for anarchy, everyone wants to riot these days

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MCFan

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rogueteens

No its not, its nothing like a county, read its history and you'll see its more akin to countries like Wales.

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CaptainHowdy

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Manfap

I used to live there and left because around 15 years ago, they started to be brainwashed.

Their politicians were clever.

They started in the schools brainwashing early, rewriting history and pushing their language, so that you could no longer have your kids taught in Spanish.

corrupt as fuck, and they stole a shitload of money adding 3% to all the local government invoices and cyphoning off the cash.

However, personally, I think they should be allowed to hold this vote.

just a punk

I'm not their citizen, but I like Catalonia and think the guys have a right to decide. Via referendum and in a peaceful way of course.

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klinton

yeah, thats the case here more or less... better to be robbed by your local bonzos than by big federal bonzos like Rajoy and his crooks ? anyway I wish the Spain to be United

Manfap

True, but when the local crooks make themselves out to be saints, whilst stashing billions in Andorra.

That and the fact it's a minority who actually want to split, they just stay silent.

It's abit weird here today though, loads of Spanish flags everywhere.. in a unity thing not like a franco dictator viva españa sort of way though.

Sarn

Freedom for Catalonia! Freedom for Europe!

klinton

PP is a "legendary" party when it goes to corruption levels there..so wonder where they do stash their milions...overall its corrupted country as hell, and I think that Catalan referendum and Scottish referendum show a class of their countries, how they did behave....

Anyway I think that both parties will be better together than separated (with a exception of few rich local bonzos)...Rajoy showed how close is he actually to Franco's policies...#LeyMordaza for example

Sarn

klinton

Ruskie, dont me make LAUGH !!!

Sarn

Here about Catalonia. )

Spain's shame as 337 people injured as cops fire rubber bullets at Catalonia referendum
Catalonia independence referendum: 337 people injured in Barcelona | Daily Star

Police shoot dead knife attacker at Marseille train station ? media
https://www.rt.com/news/405240-polic...train-station/

klinton

OK !!!

let's chant together with a Russian that praises Stalin...let's chant our song of FREEDOM !

1,2,3 !!! FREEDOM FOR OPRESSED DEMOCRACIES IN EUROPE !!! FREEDOM !!!

:G FYBand

Sarn

klinton

FREEDOM !!!

FREEDOM UNDER RUSSIAN FLAG !!!

Sarn

not Russia not Russians and not Stalin but Catalonia thread
During Stalin's time from guys like you in EU make this ))

klinton

what is this ? what do you mean ? i don't understand ? English, please...


[once again - I don't think that YOU as a Russian supporter of Stalin and even bigger supporter of Putin you have ANY right WHATSOEVER to teach others about democracy :-) :-) ]

Manfap

Bit different, as much as they claim, they have never really been their own country, they were part of the kingdom of Aragon. that merged with Castille.

They also voted in favour of the constitutution 40 years ago, that said no region has the right to split.

The PP corruption is mainly at a regional level, I dont think Rajoy is that corrupt, he doesn't really give a shit about wealth. He's quite grounded.

PSOE are just as bad, they creamed billions off Andalucia's unemployment training budget.

klinton

it is country eaten out by corruption..remember the scandal in Royal Family ?......
"local" level of corruption is totally enough to make few fishes bigger....
whole system is rotten, PSOE & PP are basically the same, the only difference is that one of them distanced hard from Franco while other not

Current Spanish gov acts like idiots, they will only fuel pro-independent thinking in Catalunya

pimpmaster9000

Violence in the streets of Spain

Hundreds of injured...

I hoped it would not come to this even though I was looking forward to the UN double standard...

For the record the violence in Spain is much worse than what we had in Yugo at the beginning...but no "evil Spaniards" comments by the UN like they did with Serbs...how interesting eh?...

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klinton

maybe because they didnt do any ethnic cleansing ? [as I'm pretty sure you mean UN naming that way Serbs AFTER the conflict emerged and killed tens of thousands, not before, when they tried for example to block Slovenians from gaining independence..that was no biggy]

few hundreds wouden is nothing....Anyway Madrid shoot itself in a foot, idiots, thats all.

NatalieK

Catalonia is a region, like I live in the Valencian region & 10mile south of me is Murcia, where Murcian people live.

It is Spain, it´s like the US & the states, or England & it´s counties.

Catalan is Spanish, it´s just a different dialect. Have you heard how northerners in Britain speak or maybe a true country bumpkin from Devon...

You wouldn´t understand if a guy from Devon asked you if you wanted a cup of Tea.

This wanting to be divided is ridiculous and dumbfucked. Maybe we should all divide each others nations by countries, counties & states, why not take it further, because the streets I live in are very clean & tidy but the ones 10mile away are not, maybe not being part of the community all together...

fuck off to anyone wanting division, they should move out, not break the country or state, region or area up. The ark was about being side by side & being together, helping one another.

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pimpmaster9000

The conflict in Yugo was staged...all 3 sides are to blame but the fighting broke out because of planned attacks that were preceded by foreign political intervention...the people of Yugo have very little to do with what happened in the beginning...

My point is that this Catalonia violence is much worse than what we had at the same time, when it became clear that there was a strong chance that the country would break up...milosevic was the bad guy even then when he did nothing at all...before any violence...

Can't wait for the UN to apply the double standard...

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Manfap

Yep but the royal family dealt with that pretty well, they changed the law so that the royal family could be prosecuted.

re the old parties, I agree, that's why 2 new parties pulled 40% of the vote in the last election. I cant vote in general elections, but in the regionals I voted for one, the wife the other.

The city I live in now, is run by the IU (communist) and gotta say, they actually do a good job. Wouldn't trust them nationally, but at local level they're great.

The government has handled this badly, but they are following the law, they've been telling them not to do it.

The PP has moved more to the centre in the past few years, so now you have the possiblity of a new extreme right party, The Falange are still kicking about but they get less that .5% of the vote.

But the extreme right are starting to wake up, which is not a good thing.

klinton

heheh I also wouldn't trust commies on national level

Days like today will only make extreme right on both sides get bigger and bigger. Spanish gov could simply let them vote..the outcome could be even remain vote (like in Scotland)..even if they would vote YES, that would be a LONG way to true indpendence...lots of obstacles. and yeah, they could also let them vote and later tell that voting was illegal, as for example, it would require 90% frequency etc. lots of things to do in smarter way...

So why UK let Scotts vote ? different country with different standards I guess

whole world is going to shit, in Spain Ley Mordaza from 2015, in UK surveillance laws, all shit

klinton

I don't know, I don't think so. In my opinion your excountry was fucked up by politicans like Karadzic and few others from all sides of the conflict. They wanted to gte more milk to themselves, and it all resulted in what it resulted. Anyways, now it seems that most of the parties are happy (Croatia, Montenegro,Slovenia, Macedonia?, Bosnia), only except Serbia....

Paul&John

Not sure if beating up your own citizens is the best solution lol they should let them vote but ignore the outcome

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Manfap

The UK hasn't got a written constitution, everything can be challenged by law.

Spain, including Cataluña in 1978 voted for a constitution that says a region cannot split from Spain.

So to change it you need to change the constitution, and I think all of Spain has to vote on those..

Manfap

Yep, Spanish police are not very good at dealing with shit like this. I think the government did something to try and stop the shouts of look they did nothing.. The right is waking up, better to keep them in mainstream politics, than get a new far right party.

pimpmaster9000

They all pretend they fought for something other than who they will pay tax to next...the politicians got rich and the people got abstract shit like a new nationality and new flag colours...nothing changed for the better it was all a big scam...

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klinton

level of life in Slovenia, Croatia is better than in Serbia, Bosnia or FYROM for sure...

if you agree with me about politicians, then dont defend crooks like Karadzic, he is one of the few to blame for the war that emerged in 90s

klinton

they are not good, because they are represantants of the gov (and partially the whole nation) that mentally still lives in XIX century...
cutting off Internet to the polling stations ? blocking the websites with list of polling stations ? por favor

let them vote, wait for NO result, if YES result would emerge by slight %, wait for contr manifestos of those that voted against etc...
easy ! instead they chose retarded Franco's path combined with XIX century's mentality

Manfap

Yep I agree, but to acknowledge it means a change in the constitution.

It's not just the vote.. its the claim declaring independence withing 48 hours that sort of needs to be dealt with.

No country in the world would allow an illegal vote and declaration of independence.

I wouldn't trust them to count the votes correctly, as everyone involved is pro independence.

celandina

...and so to Crimea, Estern Ukraine and few others.