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Old 07-18-2017, 07:57 AM   #51
Sarn
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...
Everyone wants to see more jobs of course. What Trump seems to be doing though, is pushing for jobs in the wrong sector at least when it comes to energy. Coal as a source of energy is dying out because its just too expensive compared to natural gas and other sources. Trump, for all his bragging about his money-brains, should realize this.

Cheers!
It is more Tillerson(ExxonMobil) project than Trump as I think. As an example in Ukraine it big corrupt scheme, they buy overpriced 300% coal on money IMF fund or EU credits. 100% payment go on coal, other 200% divide between 2 corrupt sides of politicians.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:00 AM   #52
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"Also technology that DOES make burning fossil fuels "cleaner" than ever before."

The problem with that and coal is its total load of crock. Saying "clean coal" is as mindlessly stupid as saying I have a "healthy melanoma". Especially since Trump signed away many environmental protections on week one.

Massive investment is required to make a technology that is marginally less polluting but more much expensive than current coal technology ? a technology that is being undercut by renewable energy by ever increasing margins.

Clean coal is just a brain wash phrase, bit like Make America Great Again
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:11 AM   #53
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there is no "clean coal" - just like there is no VW "clean diesel" - just idiots that believe marketing deceits

putting money now into a dying coal industry just to please voters instead of being a technology leader in renewable energies and create new jobs there is the dumbest thing ever

you'll see the result in a couple of years
2015, the party "GroenLinks' / "Green Left" supported it:

"In 2015, in Eemshaven, Groningen RWE put a new ultramodern power plant into operation, with a capacity of 1,560 megawatts. This new power plant, comprising of units A and B, will play an important role in the energy supply for the Netherlands in future years, because the provision of energy has to remain reliable and affordable. For that reason, ten years ago the Dutch government designated the Maasvlakte and the area around the Eemshaven plant as sites for new power plants. Partly because of the presence of a port for importing fuel and the availability of sufficient cooling water,ha RWE accepted the invitation from the Dutch government and has built an ultramodern coal-fired power plant in Eemshaven. The plant has been operational since the summer of 2015 and, since then, has been part of RWE Generation's production facilities in the Netherlands."
RWE AG - Eemshaven Power Plant

Just keep believing Trump will pollute this world in his 4 years. Maybe it gets 0.000000001 degrees warmer under Trump.

I am in favour of clean energy, i see that the big cities could be much better. Was great in Bangkok during a strike when all cars where forbidden in the center for weeks.
Left / right, all marketing.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:47 AM   #54
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Ah...insults...last resort in an argument.

I'll keep it in the arena of ideas instead.

What I am trying to point out is: "International Funding" usually means the United States paying the big majority of that "funding".
In other words taking money from OUR taxpayers and handing it to other country's.

And in this case...it is country's that are potential CUSTOMERS of U.S. energy resources.
that´s just one side of the truth because EVERYONE of the industry nation is paying into that (not really in a fund but in the own goal).
so what these country will not need for SURE is caol and oil.
but thy will need alterantive technologies. If USA (what does have the know how to be one of the leading nations in that) is ignoring that and tries to force other countries to buy coal and oil - it is WHO´s fault ?

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So, from a business perspective...the United States would be paying other country's to NOT be our customers.
That is a LOSE/LOSE proposition for the U.S.
as i said the only things these countries have to pay for is the technology.
the help for third world countries is in that case only in own interest because first of all it will safe the planet and second of all it gives them a better life. people with a better life will stay in their countries instead running away.

with enough energy these countries will also be able to do also international trades (ad yes that means producing cheaper for our prosperity) but they will always need the technology site and there will be new customers more and more.


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I voted for Trump for the economy. This is part of what working people are sick and fucking tired of.
if you mean with "for economy" that the billionairs will get richer you was right to vote for him. because these people will make the most money when your economy is broken. but the one who pays for it are people like you.
this is what trump stands for.

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Killing our own economy...just really, really dumb.
agree - but why you are voting for someone who wants to hold 50.000 jobs from yesterday and does not want to create MILLIONS of jobs fro tomorrow?

sure it is hard for an owner of oil pipelines to accept that the world is changing. if he would only be the owner of the pipeline it would not be a problem. but if the same owner is the president of the most powerful nation of the world and able to change laws in favor of his capital it really IS a problem.

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As far as the "Green Energy" vs. fossil fuels debate...I'm not arguing that.

I want solar energy because it SHOULD be free. And the only reason that we DON'T have solar in more abundance is because it IS free.
But now that big companies and the power utilities have figured out a way to make sure that they can keep their recurring billing model by keeping solar panels way over-priced and "renting" the panels with payment plans spread out over 20 years...we are finally starting to see solar energy being used.
the solar panels are not overprices - they are cheap when they are produces abroad but if you want them being produced by americans you have to pay the price.

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I am certain that the technology is only going to get better and better and better. And that electric cars are the future.
for sure.

switzerland have voted out the nuclear energy with a majoriy of nearly 60%

BILLIONS will be invested - unfortunately not in USA because they offer coal and oil only.

germany produces in 2016 a total of 74,25 TERRAWATT only with windenergy - the first time more with wind as with nuclear (what will end in a few years anyway completely in germany).

india has opened in kamuthi the biggest solar plant in the world. 2,5 million solar panels are producing 648 Megawatt just from the sun.

the netherland (top position in the world for green energy) will spend in 2017 33% more in renewable energy.

even marokko´s goal is 42% renewable energy til 2020

and this list can go on and on...

and trump wants to save the jobs from 50.000 coalminers.

do you not see how he fools you ?

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Having said all of that, it's still a stupid decision to hurt our own economy and not take advantage of new technology that has enabled us to discover vast reserves of fossil fuel resources that we didn't even know existed 20 years ago.
Also technology that DOES make burning fossil fuels "cleaner" than ever before.

Car emissions are the lowest they've ever been. And every year, more smart people are creating new ways to get faster cars that run more cleanly than the year before.
i am glad that you are completely normal in that way you think. others than other trump supporters what are in opposite of all what comes from the other side. i appreciate that from you.

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There is no need to have the Federal Govt. put us in global agreements that deliberately hurt our economy in the meantime.
unfortunately we can not build climate walls. this problem is a global problem and can only be resolved when the whole world is in that.

and if 90% of the whole world agrees in that topic and gives them just this in common it will open doors in between them.

i personally believe that trump will not be that long in the white house that he is able to close this doors to the world. but with every day he is there new contacts and trading deals will be done in between the others.
because fact is that US have NOTHING what other nations do not have. it would be hard but hardest for america if the world would have to replace america.
and they are already in that.
wait a few years and see what happens with exports from countries what are not willing to help against the climate change.
believe me - those countries will not export even a match anymore and than you will see how much america needs the world.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:58 AM   #55
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It is so simple, if coal is less profitable than solar/wind, it will take over.
Just a matter of time. Why worry, the market is Always right.

No need to fund other countries than, they will use solar/wind themselves.
And just say to china, if it isn't produced with solar/wind, we don't want it.
They will take care of their cleaner production, they are lending out money all over the world, so they have money.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:10 AM   #56
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It is so simple, if coal is less profitable than solar/wind, it will take over.
Just a matter of time. Why worry, the market is Always right.

No need to fund other countries than, they will use solar/wind themselves.
And just say to china, if it isn't produced with solar/wind, we don't want it.
They will take care of their cleaner production, they are lending out money all over the world, so they have money.
agree !

but the point is that china is on the way there and US on the opposite way.
so i assume that we do not have to say it to china...but......
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:58 AM   #57
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I agree.
We also need to keep in mind that once we stop manufacturing stuff here and instead manufacture it in another country because it's less expensive...that "other country" probably has NO regulations at all.

So the "carbon footprint" is giant in the "other country". And since we all live on the same planet...it doesn't "help" us to have those jobs in that "other country".

I believe there is a "Sweet Spot" (just like there is with anything). Enough regulations to ensure safety and environmental protection WITHOUT hurting business.

I think that big govt. (like it always does)...went past the "sweet spot" a couple of decades back. And the EPA makes "law" (unconstitutionally) by it's regulations.
So we end up with our companies and businesses being ruled over by an unelected group of bureaucrats in the EPA.

I hope Trump reigns that shit in. And like you, I hope he doesn't go TOO far the other way.
But that's the beauty of the vision of the Founding Fathers. We have 3 equal branches of govt. AND we have elections.

If Trump fails at his job...let's kick his ass out in 4 years. If Congress continues to fail...kick their ass out in 2018.
Hear, hear, hear!
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #58
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It is so simple, if coal is less profitable than solar/wind, it will take over.
Just a matter of time. Why worry, the market is Always right.

No need to fund other countries than, they will use solar/wind themselves.
And just say to china, if it isn't produced with solar/wind, we don't want it.
They will take care of their cleaner production, they are lending out money all over the world, so they have money.
if there was a free market... but if you subsidize coal to keep it alive there isn't
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:59 PM   #59
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Celebrating 4 more years a bit too much
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:05 AM   #60
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did you ever look if there is also brain to find in USA ?

it has a simple reason WHY this coal is under the ground because if it would NOT be this planet would never have seen life.
Coal was once above ground. That's why it's called "Fossil Fuel".
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:08 AM   #61
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there is no "clean coal" - just like there is no VW "clean diesel" - just idiots that believe marketing deceits

putting money now into a dying coal industry just to please voters instead of being a technology leader in renewable energies and create new jobs there is the dumbest thing ever

you'll see the result in a couple of years
There is no such thing as "clean energy" yet and maybe never. The only thing we can do is to cut down consumption.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:13 AM   #62
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while trump tries to safe 50.000 unnecessary jobs in US what can only exist when the taxpayer is paying subvention china created 3,4 million new jobs around the renewable energy.

maybe the next time chinese should manipulate the US election - possibly they are better as the russians.
And then selling those goods to the First World.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:14 AM   #63
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There's nothing wrong at all with the idea of course, and lets face it, the United States really needs this.
There is something wrong. It harms the profits of the 1% and we cant let that happen, that would help the 99%.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:22 AM   #64
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Ah...insults...last resort in an argument.

I'll keep it in the arena of ideas instead.

What I am trying to point out is: "International Funding" usually means the United States paying the big majority of that "funding".
In other words taking money from OUR taxpayers and handing it to other country's.

And in this case...it is country's that are potential CUSTOMERS of U.S. energy resources.

So, from a business perspective...the United States would be paying other country's to NOT be our customers.
That is a LOSE/LOSE proposition for the U.S.

And it's just one of many in a long line of stupid decisions made by bureaucrats.

I voted for Trump for the economy. This is part of what working people are sick and fucking tired of.

Killing our own economy...just really, really dumb.

As far as the "Green Energy" vs. fossil fuels debate...I'm not arguing that.

I want solar energy because it SHOULD be free. And the only reason that we DON'T have solar in more abundance is because it IS free.
But now that big companies and the power utilities have figured out a way to make sure that they can keep their recurring billing model by keeping solar panels way over-priced and "renting" the panels with payment plans spread out over 20 years...we are finally starting to see solar energy being used.

I am certain that the technology is only going to get better and better and better. And that electric cars are the future.

Having said all of that, it's still a stupid decision to hurt our own economy and not take advantage of new technology that has enabled us to discover vast reserves of fossil fuel resources that we didn't even know existed 20 years ago.
Also technology that DOES make burning fossil fuels "cleaner" than ever before.

Car emissions are the lowest they've ever been. And every year, more smart people are creating new ways to get faster cars that run more cleanly than the year before.

That will continue. And solar technological advancements will continue as well.

There is no need to have the Federal Govt. put us in global agreements that deliberately hurt our economy in the meantime.
Customers of the West are often those who sell back to the West far more than they buy. And when they do buy, what is it that they bought, not products made by the likes of us. It's too often banking and goods assembled in the West.

Solar is part of the future, the US deserts would solve daytime power. the problem is solar doesn't have enough lobbyists and oil/coal do.

Agree about car emissions, but do Americans have to have such big cars?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:25 AM   #65
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I agree.
We also need to keep in mind that once we stop manufacturing stuff here and instead manufacture it in another country because it's less expensive...that "other country" probably has NO regulations at all.

So the "carbon footprint" is giant in the "other country". And since we all live on the same planet...it doesn't "help" us to have those jobs in that "other country".

I believe there is a "Sweet Spot" (just like there is with anything). Enough regulations to ensure safety and environmental protection WITHOUT hurting business.

I think that big govt. (like it always does)...went past the "sweet spot" a couple of decades back. And the EPA makes "law" (unconstitutionally) by it's regulations.
So we end up with our companies and businesses being ruled over by an unelected group of bureaucrats in the EPA.

I hope Trump reigns that shit in. And like you, I hope he doesn't go TOO far the other way.
But that's the beauty of the vision of the Founding Fathers. We have 3 equal branches of govt. AND we have elections.

If Trump fails at his job...let's kick his ass out in 4 years. If Congress continues to fail...kick their ass out in 2018.
Is it less expensive?

Take into account the unemployed, low wages, social and crime problems, etc. It's less expensive for the company to manufacture abroad. Is it less expensive for the government and if so by how much?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:50 AM   #66
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There is no such thing as "clean energy" yet and maybe never. The only thing we can do is to cut down consumption.
oh really? pray tell how a hydro electric dam pollutes? solar?
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:00 AM   #67
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Paul, don't waste your time or energy.

It's a Jewish extortion racket, with the same "whitey is guilty" narrative as the Holocaust. The goal is fewer white babies, hence why none of this crap applies to China.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:55 AM   #68
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Ah...insults...last resort in an argument.

.
Not an insult Robbie, more of an observation.

I used to think your justification for supporting Trump was a genuine belief that he had some wizard economic wheeze up his sleeve which would turn the clock back 50 years to post WWII USA. I thought your Red Hat was ill-judged but sincere and that you had the intelligence to actually judge events as they unfold.

However after witnessing you make excuse after excuse for Trumps bumbling laughing stock of a presidency, I can see that you are really just another idiot who will argue black is white. Another angry white male who believes that "they are stealin our jobs", another Trump supporter whose world outlook is as ignorant and unsophisticated as his Emperor.

You might as well punctuate every sentence with the phrase "dumb libs".

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Old 07-19-2017, 12:27 PM   #69
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oh really? pray tell how a hydro electric dam pollutes? solar?
Hydro - flooding large areas, displacing towns, changing the river water flow in a way disruptive to wildlife, silt backup behind the dam, etc.

Solar - large amount of toxic materials used to produce the panels, huge land use per megawatt of power, impact on wildlife, disposal of the toxic panels after they loss too much efficiency to still be of use.

Every energy technology pollutes over its life cycle. Most studies show hydro and nuclear as the cleanest overall (smallest overall environmental impact).
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:43 PM   #70
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There is no such thing as "clean energy" yet and maybe never. The only thing we can do is to cut down consumption.
I disagree.

We can reduce consumption like you said but its hard to change peoples habits. An easier and better way is to make appliances and cars more energy efficient, and make the ways we harvest energy more efficient too. All of this should be IN ADDITION to deriving energy from cleaner sources such as solar and wind.


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There is something wrong. It harms the profits of the 1% and we cant let that happen, that would help the 99%.
For sure some 1%'s will say that, but of course the opposite is true. It would mean more jobs and more money for everyone, which means more money for spending, more money for taxes, and hopefully more general happiness for everyone.


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oh really? pray tell how a hydro electric dam pollutes? solar?
I'm a greeney I promise, but Hydro electric means big changes to the land and water. Increased biomass in the water could mean increased methane. The manufacturing of solar panels pollutes too. Of course the damage these cause are small compared to the gains, but everything everywhere, pollutes.


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Originally Posted by jsmih View Post
Hydro - flooding large areas, displacing towns, changing the river water flow in a way disruptive to wildlife, silt backup behind the dam, etc.
All very true, though hopefully everything adapts. The benefits though really outweigh the costs, and most importantly, the energy you get from the damn is renewable.


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Solar - large amount of toxic materials used to produce the panels, huge land use per megawatt of power, impact on wildlife, disposal of the toxic panels after they loss too much efficiency to still be of use.
True, but like Hydro, the benefits are huge and the costs relatively low. And also, Solar Panels last an average of 25 years before losing only 20% of their efficiency.

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Originally Posted by jsmih View Post
Every energy technology pollutes over its life cycle.
Gasoline and other fossil fuels do, but things like solar and wind do not.

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Originally Posted by jsmih View Post
Most studies show hydro and nuclear as the cleanest overall (smallest overall environmental impact).
Correct. And even though Nuclear scares alot of people, it is actually very clean with a very small overall impact, especially if the new modern power planets replace the old ones.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:11 PM   #71
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We should be spending that money developing clean, renewable energy. It would create jobs, be good for the environment, and help make us energy independent.
I wish more people thought like this.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:12 PM   #72
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I wish more people thought like this.
signed!!!!
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:21 PM   #73
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Paul, don't waste your time or energy.

It's a Jewish extortion racket, with the same "whitey is guilty" narrative as the Holocaust. The goal is fewer white babies, hence why none of this crap applies to China.
looool

you are the funniest idiot i have ever seen.

do you not have an insurance who pays you the clinic you need?
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #74
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And then selling those goods to the First World.
great not? if the "first" world is dumb enough to count on coal. meanwhile they get exactly what they are good for.

my applause is for the chinese and not for the dumbfuckers

btw. WHY first world ???

are you including yourself in that?
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:41 PM   #75
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:47 PM   #76
Paul Markham
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Paul, don't waste your time or energy.

It's a Jewish extortion racket, with the same "whitey is guilty" narrative as the Holocaust. The goal is fewer white babies, hence why none of this crap applies to China.
It's not just the Jews. It's the 1%.
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:50 PM   #77
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I disagree.

We can reduce consumption like you said but its hard to change peoples habits. An easier and better way is to make appliances and cars more energy efficient, and make the ways we harvest energy more efficient too. All of this should be IN ADDITION to deriving energy from cleaner sources such as solar and wind.
So you agree with me.




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For sure some 1%'s will say that, but of course the opposite is true. It would mean more jobs and more money for everyone, which means more money for spending, more money for taxes, and hopefully more general happiness for everyone.
More jobs in China maybe. That's before automation kicks in. Your thinking of a different time maybe the 70s?
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:21 AM   #78
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I'm a greeney I promise, but Hydro electric means big changes to the land and water. Increased biomass in the water could mean increased methane. The manufacturing of solar panels pollutes too. Of course the damage these cause are small compared to the gains, but everything everywhere, pollutes.

yes hydro electric entails a big change to the land and water ONCE...flooding a region certainly has impact that ONE time...but for the next 10000 years it will give clean power...this is a very very strong argument...
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:35 AM   #79
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Not an insult Robbie, more of an observation.

I used to think your justification for supporting Trump was a genuine belief that he had some wizard economic wheeze up his sleeve which would turn the clock back 50 years to post WWII USA. I thought your Red Hat was ill-judged but sincere and that you had the intelligence to actually judge events as they unfold.

However after witnessing you make excuse after excuse for Trumps bumbling laughing stock of a presidency, I can see that you are really just another idiot who will argue black is white. Another angry white male who believes that "they are stealin our jobs", another Trump supporter whose world outlook is as ignorant and unsophisticated as his Emperor.

You might as well punctuate every sentence with the phrase "dumb libs".

You are obviously so much smarter than I am.
I must bow down to your superiority.

I sincerely apologize for having a different political viewpoint than you.
You and everyone that hates Trump are my intellectual superiors.
You, bladewire, crockett, rochard...and the list goes on. I feel like such a fool now for ever having the audacity to step out of line from your thought process.
Please forgive me.
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