More Dramma - Should I pay Jman? I WANT YOUR OPINION

[SleazyDream]

I know more drama and it's getting old.......

but I'd like YOUR opinion on this...

I assume most of you know what it's about. if not - do some digging...

I'd like to know YOUR opinion on the whole thing.

Do YOU think I should pay Jman back for his shares on the land deal?

if so - please explain your reasons why?

I would like to see other points of view on it from some real people if you have the time to voice your opinion on it.


( I am bound by Canadian bankruptcy laws on this at the moment and I have no plans on doing anything illegal - just interested in the opinion of my peers here on this)

-more weight will be given by me to real people VS trolls who hide their identity in this thread.

[quiet]

was there any sort of written agreement between you two?

[Due]

This could get interesting.
I don't know your deal so got no clue

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by quiet

was there any sort of written agreement between you two?

yes - rent to own contract.

Jman was 5 months late on payments- at 3 months he lost everything in the contract

[MetaMan]

i think you should pay exta healthcare for being such a fat bastard. LOLZ

[theking]

Need specific details of the deal the two of you made...to make the conclusion that you are aking for.

[Spunky]

Investments are a risk.you win some and lose more in the end when friends are involved

[Mutt]

not unless the 'investment' he made was in actuality a loan - which doesn't sound like it's the case.

definitely not a good idea to go into business with friends or family, if i encouraged a friend to invest money into a business venture and it went bad i'd feel guilty even if he was made fully aware that the risk was the same as for any business, you can lose your investment - if i had the cash and the friend didn't have much i'd probably pay him back the investment he put in. that's if he acted decently towards me as the deal was going bad, if he was turning on me, being a dick because things weren't working out - no way.

[will76]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

yes - rent to own contract.

Jman was 5 months late on payments- at 3 months he lost everything in the contract

Ok details needed.

So you bought the land and financed it with the bank, and then did a rent to own deal with him where he was buying it from you?

Did he give you a down payment? Is that where the 15K is coming from ? The contract said he paid "xxxx" amount each month and after "xxx" months he owned it? You collected the money from him, paid the bank each month and I assume made a little profit on the deal?

He didn't pay you for 5 months so he lost what he had invested ?

Did you ultimately lose the land to the bank?

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by will76

Ok details needed.

So you bought the land and financed it with the bank, and then did a rent to own deal with him where he was buying it from you?

Did he give you a down payment? Is that where the 15K is coming from ? The contract said he paid "xxxx" amount each month and after "xxx" months he owned it? You collected the money from him, paid the bank each month and I assume made a little profit on the deal?

He didn't pay you for 5 months so he lost what he had invested ?

Did you ultimately lose the land to the bank?

no that is not what happened. none of it.

[SleazyDream]

to be fair - Jman did send money trying to get past the 3 month time frame, but didn't send the regular amount and didn't earmark if the money was for his parking debt he owed me as well or for a bar bill he agreed to pay. Both legitimate bills outstanding for some time. The amounts he sent looked a lot more like the amounts he owed on the other bills. I honestly didn't know which they were for though. the amount he did send didn't get him past the 3 month mark either....I told him I would work with him with the bankruptcy trustee though to get his claim legit despite many many threats from Jman on my finances, my business and my life.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by Mutt

not unless the 'investment' he made was in actuality a loan - which doesn't sound like it's the case.

definitely not a good idea to go into business with friends or family, if i encouraged a friend to invest money into a business venture and it went bad i'd feel guilty even if he was made fully aware that the risk was the same as for any business, you can lose your investment - if i had the cash and the friend didn't have much i'd probably pay him back the investment he put in. that's if he acted decently towards me as the deal was going bad, if he was turning on me, being a dick because things weren't working out - no way.

i agree and actually advised him against it. He really wanted this. I had other people who wanted in as well.

[will76]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

no that is not what happened. none of it.

thanks that clears it all up then


so what did happen then........ ?????

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by will76

Ok details needed.

So you bought the land and financed it with the bank, and then did a rent to own deal with him where he was buying it from you?

Did he give you a down payment? Is that where the 15K is coming from ? The contract said he paid "xxxx" amount each month and after "xxx" months he owned it? You collected the money from him, paid the bank each month and I assume made a little profit on the deal?

He didn't pay you for 5 months so he lost what he had invested ?

Did you ultimately lose the land to the bank?

i put a $30,000 downpayment on a $100,000 piece of land.
Jman put no money down. just rent to own monthly payments for 49K of it - I owned 51K of it. he paid in about 16K ish over the time we owned it before I went bankrupt


i paid all legal bills to set up the agreement and paid all taxes too.

he missed 5 months of payments - read above for the rest

bank took back the land but was willing to consider letting Jman take it over....

[theking]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

i put a $30,000 downpayment on a $100,000 piece of land.
Jman put no money down. just rent to own monthly payments for 49K of it - I owned 51K of it. he paid in about 16K ish over the time we owned it before I went bankrupt


i paid all legal bills to set up the agreement and paid all taxes too.

he missed 5 months of payments - read above for the rest

bank took back the land but was willing to consider letting Jman take it over....

So you bought some land with a $30,000 down payment...and you set up a separate deal with him for a rent to own...approximately half of the land...upon final payment. You went bankrupt and lost the land so he lost all of his rent to own investment because you could not uphold your end due to bankruptcy.

Does this accurately sum it up?

[wdsguy]

I remember when you guys were best bros.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by theking

So you bought some land with a $30,000 down payment...and you set up a separate deal with him for a rent to own...approximately half of the land...upon final payment. You went bankrupt and lost the land so he lost all of his rent to own investment because you could not uphold your end due to bankruptcy.

Does this accurately sum it up?

yes except that near the end he missed 5 months of payments and at 3 months contract said he lost all.

[theking]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

yes except that near the end he missed 5 months of payments and at 3 months contract said he lost all.

If he in fact violated the rent to own contract you had made with him...no you do not owe him anything. If he in fact had been current on his payments and you lost the land because you could not uphold your end...I could then understand why he would be somewhat pissed off...but I also think it was a very stupid investment on his part.

The bottom line is...you did not lose his investment...he lost his investment by not abiding by the terms of the contract he had with you.

[theking]

BTW...if the facts are as you outlined them...morally...you also do not owe him anything.

[will76]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

i put a $30,000 downpayment on a $100,000 piece of land.
Jman put no money down. just rent to own monthly payments for 49K of it - I owned 51K of it. he paid in about 16K ish over the time we owned it before I went bankrupt


i paid all legal bills to set up the agreement and paid all taxes too.

he missed 5 months of payments - read above for the rest

bank took back the land but was willing to consider letting Jman take it over....

How much were the payments to the bank ? and how much were his monthly payments to you?

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by will76

How much were the payments to the bank ? and how much were his monthly payments to you?

i'd have to get the bank records so I'll approximate here - he paid about $500 a month and I paid about $150 a month on the mortgage - mine was less due to my down payment. he paid me and i paid the bank never missing a payment to the bank - EVER - till i went bankrupt - including the 5 months he missed (which happened to be the roughest months for money of my life)

[theking]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

i'd have to get the bank records so I'll approximate here - he paid about $500 a month and I paid about $150 a month on the mortgage - mine was less due to my down payment. he paid me and i paid the bank never missing a payment to the bank - EVER - till i went bankrupt - including the 5 months he missed (which happened to be the roughest months for money of my life)

How did you manage to get away with paying $150 a month on a $70,000 dollar mortgage?

[Brujah]

WHY would you pay him back? Please let me participate in some of these 100% guaranteed investment deals where if it doesn't work out I still get all of my money back and more.

Of course not.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by theking

How did you manage to get away with paying $150 a month on a $70,000 dollar mortgage?

jman's loan portion was 50,000 - mine was $20,000 - it worked out that way by the math... mine might have been a little small and Jman's a little larger when I think about it - i'm aproximating numbers here without checking my bank records... total mortage was a little over $600 if I remember - lawyer worked it out

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by theking

How did you manage to get away with paying $150 a month on a $70,000 dollar mortgage?

Because it was 500 plus 150

[theking]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

jman's loan portion was 50,000 - mine was $20,000 - it worked out that way by the math... mine might have been a little small and Jman's a little larger when I think about it - i'm aproximating numbers here without checking my bank records... total mortage was a little over $600 if I remember - lawyer worked it out

Now you have lost me. It was my understanding that you bought a property for $100,000 and you paid $30,000 down which would leave you with a mortgage of $70,000 to the bank. You then make a seperate deal with Jman to buy approximately half of the land from you on a rent to own basis. You owe the bank $70,000 he owes you around $50,000 and he has no mortage to the bank or anyone else...he is on a rent to own deal with you. Where have I gone wrong?

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by theking

Where have I gone wrong?

right about the time you decided to fake your own death and came up with a preposterous story that would make you the subject of ridicule for the next 10 years.

[theking]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Because it was 500 plus 150

So the mortgage payment for you to pay each and every month was $650 and not $150...which is much more reasonable on a $70,000 mortgage.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by theking

So the mortgage payment for you to pay each and every month was $650 and not $150...which is much more reasonable on a $70,000 mortgage.

aprox.. i'd have to check records for exact numbers

[theking]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

aprox.. i'd have to check records for exact numbers

That is close enough...no need to check records. I will repeat...if the facts are as you stated...he lost his own investment by not living up to the rent to own contract between you and him...thus legally you do not owe him and in my opinion do not morally owe him.

No need to frustrate yourself with thinking about this matter.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

yes except that near the end he missed 5 months of payments and at 3 months contract said he lost all.

Considering everything that happened, I'd say you don't owe a thing.

If you didn't go bankrupt, he probably could have paid you the money he was late on and you would have allowed him to keep his share even thought the contract said otherwise. Even if he was 8 months late and started making slow payments, I'm sure you would have let him keep his share. I know you would have done it because you're a very good man.

I also have a feeling that you felt responsible for losing this investment when you went bankrupt, and had Jman been understanding and supported you rather than threaten you, I'm sure you would have made it right eventually. But during bankruptcy proceedings is NOT the right time to make something like that right. It could be 5 years from now, when you're a millionaire again, that you give him $20k for his troubles.

Threatening someone while he's down and can't do shit about something, for only $16k on top of it, is SHITTY. Doing that while you're in breach of contract? You deserve to lose every penny.


Maybe I got this situation wrong, but that's my opinion. I've had a very similar situation happen, where a friend of mine I invested $55k with went bankrupt and he's still going through it - and I NEVER bring up that money. I'm there to support him through this unbelievably stressful situation. When he gets back on hit feet, and I know he will, he will make it right. But even when he mentions the money sometimes - I change the subject cause stressing him more is not gonna help anything.


note: I've met Scott and Jman many times before, had a good time with both of them in Gimli. If the situation was opposite and Scott was the one threatening Jman while he's in bankruptcy, I'd say Scott was wrong.

[SleazyDream]

Thank you Jay[neX]

that pretty much sums up how I feel about it too

[unleashxxx]

how did you manage to go bankrupt? i would think your aff recurring income alone is enough to keep you above water?

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by unleashxxx

how did you manage to go bankrupt? i would think your aff recurring income alone is enough to keep you above water?

offices and nightclub business deal went bad - wasn't able to refinance as it happened when the market crashed....plus dirty cops and other gov't officials...

I wrote off 3/4 of a million in bankrupsy and lost over a mil of my own momey

I don't say dirty cops lightly - i goto court in 2 weeks on that very issue with a detective - if i win that it means I can go civil on a big lawsuit if I so choose....

[unleashxxx]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

offices and nightclub business deal went bad - wasn't able to refinance as it happened when the market crashed....plus dirty cops and other gov't officials...

I wrote off 3/4 of a million in bankrupsy and lost over a mil of my own momey

I don't say dirty cops lightly - i goto court in 2 weeks on that very issue with a detective - if i win that it means I can go civil on a big lawsuit if I so choose....

ah damn, that sucks. hope you win man. that would be great if you could recoup some of your lost money.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by unleashxxx

ah damn, that sucks. hope you win man. that would be great if you could recoup some of your lost money.

i won't be able to recoup any of my money - possible some for the creditors though...

some of them may want to finance a lawyer to recover.

I just don't like the idea of a dirty cop existing... and am pushing forward to see if the system is corrupt too - most judges I know arn't but I guess we'll see

[CunningStunt]

If he broke the contract, he's owed nothing, end of story.

[unleashxxx]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

i won't be able to recoup any of my money - possible some for the creditors though...

some of them may want to finance a lawyer to recover.

I just don't like the idea of a dirty cop existing... and am pushing forward to see if the system is corrupt too - most judges I know arn't but I guess we'll see

dirty cops of course, but the question is, how high does it go? sometimes if you stir the hornets nest you get stung by a lot more than just one so be careful of making them mad.

do you still sell spots thru cybercat?

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by unleashxxx

dirty cops of course, but the question is, how high does it go? sometimes if you stir the hornets nest you get stung by a lot more than just one so be careful of making them mad.

do you still sell spots thru cybercat?

still sell though cybercat

i moved out of the city and from city police to an RCMP area

[quiet]

you prefer the rcmp? hmm. i've been living in an rcmp town (Banff and now Whistler), around 8 years. not sure i prefer them over city cops. of course we all have different experiences.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by quiet

you prefer the rcmp? hmm. i've been living in an rcmp town (if i include Banff), around 8 years. not sure i prefer them over city cops. of course we all have different experiences.

depends on the city.

I'm not saying the RCMP are great - compared to the city of Wpg police they are angles though

[SleazyDream]

what i find the appalling here is that nobody seems to understand that in Canada and the USA we have a legal right to bankrupt.....

yes he broke our deal - I would have probally worked something out though...

what's shocking is most people here seem to agree with the idea of debtor's prison

[Ace_luffy]

yes, bec. that is part and obligation , as a investors, in the contract, if you, you should know that,

[JamesK]

Taking this to the boards is ridiculous. You guys need to be reasonable and sit together, talk it over in a respectful way without insulting and name calling and sort something out privately.

[TheDoc]

I saw you had some issues, but never read up on it.. then I see this post and you included numbers.

You talked a big game once, even to my face, but had to borrow piss money for land and stuff?


This for real?

[WiredGuy]

I think you two should cut some sort of deal, it doesn't need to be now as obviously you're in a state of bankruptcy, but I think despite the past problems, some sort of good faith deal should be made down the line. Don't waste money on lawyers as they'll take whatever is left at the end of the day, just try to find some mutual ground where some sort of payment is done over the next 1-2 years.
WG

[Varius]

If he missed 5 months payments of $500/mth without very good reason, violating the agreement, he definitely doesn't deserve anything back. If his portion already-invested was that important to him he would have found that $500 per month - borrow from another friend, have a few less restaurant/bar trips per month, etc... It's not like we are talking thousands here. Sounds to me like he took your "friendship" for granted and expected even if he let his payments slide you would cover his end. Which I suspect you may have done had you not hit your own money problems.

It was a business deal and you always need to keep business and personal relationships separate. For those who say it is hard, it isn't; I have done business for years with friends and keeping the two separate isn't hard at all as long as one "friend" isn't just using the other.

[Matt 26z]

It sounds like his missed payments were a contributing factor to your bankruptcy. He should be more upset with himself than you.

This is like one roommate not paying his share of the rent and then being upset with the other guy when they don't have a place to live anymore.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

what i find the appalling here is that nobody seems to understand that in Canada and the USA we have a legal right to bankrupt.....

yes he broke our deal - I would have probally worked something out though...

what's shocking is most people here seem to agree with the idea of debtor's prison

Peoples opinions change between debtors prison and bankruptcy depending on their personal situation. ;-)

From everything I've read, you are pretty much in the clear and shouldn't even be thinking about it anymore. Seriously just move on. Don't even respond.

[Deej]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

It sounds like his missed payments were a contributing factor to your bankruptcy. He should be more upset with himself than you.

This is like one roommate not paying his share of the rent and then being upset with the other guy when they don't have a place to live anymore.

Like?

Sounds dead on...